low tech 90 gallon tank substrate recommendation request

[citrite]

Hi all,

I recently got back into the hobby with a 10 gallon tank and two weeks ago I picked up a 90 gallon tank. I've been reviewing the latest regarding planted tanks and I've also read through Greg Watson's APN guide. My last tank (125) was a planted Discus tank using Flourite and CO2 with algae problems before going to Jack Dempseys and having all of my plants uprooted--I was also living in FL then. My water here in TN has a ph of 7.0.

I'm currently undecided between going back to a planted Discus tank (low tech this time) or taking a local aquarist's four adult Firemouths and starting a low tech planted tank. The nice thing about this is that I can choose from a wider selection of plants than I can with the Discus.

I've been reviewing the substrates now available on the market and I would prefer to have a sandy substrate--especially if I go back to keeping Discus and want to keep a Coryduras catfish or two in the tank as well--also, I'm not sure I want to go through the hassle of having two different substrates, especially since I tend to find myself moving plants around for aesthetics and don't want to look at a messy substrate. Being that this tank is low tech and that I travel a lot I was planning on dosing once every week or two and doing very infrequent water changes--if possible.

I do have my CO2 needle valve from the old tank and might consider implementing CO2 again but haven't made that decision yet--any recommendations whether or not to use? I'm on the verge of purchasing a 4x54 watt T5 HO 216 Watt light hood and if the lighting is too much I can always reduce the number of bulbs that are in use but I'm figuring that will give me 2.4 wpg.

The Seachem onyx sounds like it gets the best overall marks here but I would prefer a lighter white or taupe colored sand over a black one. I can get a taupe colored pool filter sand which is very inexpensive or something like the Caribsea instant aquarium "Sunset Gold". In the end I don't want the substrate to be a factor in terms of the plants. The way I see it, $22 for pool filter sand is cheap, $100 or so for Seachem Onyx is reasonable, $200 for Flourite black sand is expensive.

Thanks!

 

[DukeNJ]

As long as you're dosing ferts and using root tabs anything will do really.

Even the mighty AS needs to be supplemented after a while.

 

[Crispino Ramos]

Go for the sand if you're going to have Corydoras then find plants that do well on sand.

 

[citrite]

"As long as you're dosing ferts and using root tabs"

I didn't think I needed root tabs as long as I was dosing the water column, are they necessary?

 

[Crispino Ramos]

"As long as you're dosing ferts and using root tabs"

I didn't think I needed root tabs as long as I was dosing the water column, are they necessary?

Heavy root feeder plants do need feeding at the substrate level.

 

[Tom Barr]

I wonder what a heavy root feeder really is..........Milfoil would qualify more than many Crypts if it's translocation of nutrients.

 

[Crispino Ramos]

I wonder what a heavy root feeder really is..........Milfoil would qualify more than many Crypts if it's translocation of nutrients.

Let's just starve that milfoil to extinction, although citrite's discus would probably find the milfoil appetizing.

 

[citrite]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, but I'm still unclear as to whether or not it's best to have an inert substrate...It would be a lot easier on my schedule if I didn't have to mess with fertilizer tabs and could just dose weekly or so via the water column.

 

[Whiskey]

My tank uses EcoComplete for a substrate and I've found that I get much stronger growth of my crypts and even my stems if I put some root tabs in the substrate every couple of months. It's pretty easy, takes maybe 5 min, every couple months - I think the package recommends between 1 and 3 months.

I'm currently using the Flourish ones, but I'm looking for something even better as well.

Whiskey

 

[Whiskey]

I wonder what a heavy root feeder really is..........Milfoil would qualify more than many Crypts if it's translocation of nutrients.

I've been thinking allot about this question - Maybe it's as simple as "Increased Surface area"? Like,.. the plants that are capable of taking nutrients up by the roots do better when nutrients are available there simply because then they are more capable of taking up nutrients all over the entire plant, rather being limited to taking them up in the leaves and transporting nutrients the roots require down to them?

Is that possible?
J~

Edited to add this,.. I found an interesting article that stated the following - Not sure how reputable it is, but it should spark some very informative discussion on the subject anyway.

Aquatic plants, unlike their terrestrial counterparts, can absorb mineral nutrients both from the water through their leaves and from the sediment through their roots. Unfortunately, it is often assumed that rooted aquatic plants can obtain all their mineral nutrient requirements through their leaves. This is, however, incorrect. As early as 1905 a researcher by the name of Raymond H. Pond stated that, " ... a soil substratum is requisite for normal growth." and that, " [rooted aquatic plants] make a better growth on a good loam soil, just as many land plants do." Since then, the dramatic and consistently superior growth of plants rooted in soil compared to plants rooted in sand has been shown repeatedly for many different aquatic plant species from many different types of habitat.

This is the link to the entire article:
http://www.hallman.org/plant/huebert.html

 

[Gerryd]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, but I'm still unclear as to whether or not it's best to have an inert substrate...It would be a lot easier on my schedule if I didn't have to mess with fertilizer tabs and could just dose weekly or so via the water column.

Hi,

This is my 2 cents for what it is worth....not sure there is a definitive answer.

1). Since it is NOT clear whether aquatic plants intake nutrients via plants, roots, or both, I submit that it cannot hurt to have an enriched substrate in addition to water column dosing.

2). Scientific knowledge is constantly changing and there are many mysteries around life...think of all the new knowledge about the ocean floor or the life cycles around the great northern forest, or the life of the acacia and how it affects the area and wildlife. I think this area is not as studied as others simply because there is not enough $ to justify it at the present time.

3). Plants as we know are always adapting to their environment. What is to say that some plants cannot adapt better than others to take advantage of a NEW nutrient source that is not usually available to them?

I just think that if possible having both sources of nutrients availabe to the plant is advantageous. I have used inert substrates only but will use ADA on a large scale soon.

However, like others, I have found that root tabs inserted into the flourite has had a positive effect on the plants.

 

[Crispino Ramos]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, but I'm still unclear as to whether or not it's best to have an inert substrate...It would be a lot easier on my schedule if I didn't have to mess with fertilizer tabs and could just dose weekly or so via the water column.

In your busy schedule, the best substrate would be Seachem Fluorite. Just do it. It's just a hobby.

 

[DukeNJ]

Dont stress so much over substrate. Root tabs take no time at all as whiskey said. When it comes to the basics of maint, trimming, water changing, filter cleaning, time of inserting root tabs doesn't even register. You may not need them, but they help and are so easy...why not.

Buy what you like. It will be fine as long as you're supplementing.

 

[aquabillpers]

If you opted for a substrate of topsoil under 2mm - 3 mm gravel you would rarely if ever have to do any water column dosing nor would you need to add root tabs nor any other substrate fertilizer.

You might check out Diane Walstad's "El Natural" at APC. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/

If you used about 3/4 inch of soil and an inch of gravel, moving plants would not a problem.

I have had such a setup in a smaller tank for more than 3 years, and the crypts and vals need trimming every few weeks. I last dosed about 9 months ago, a little KNO3.

What kind of lighting will you be using?

Bill

 

[citrite]

You might check out Diane Walstad's "El Natural"...

What kind of lighting will you be using?

Bill

Hey Bill, I'm Bill too!

I actually have a copy of Diana's book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" somewhere in the house which I read about about 5 years ago, but I haven't had a chance to look at it since then. I'm extremely busy with work at the moment so I was hoping to fill in the missing gaps online and quite frankly I've been overwhelmed with the vast number of possibilities that I've come across. I am giving the soil approach more consideration especially after reading your post; thank you very much for the insight. I really want the substrate to not be high-maintenance and I want it to last for at least several years without needing to be replaced/replenished. As an example ADA sounds like it could be high-maintenance based upon some of the posts I've come across.

I've been looking at a 216 watt HO T5 lighting unit which will run 4 54 watt 48" bulbs. I figure if it ends up being too much light I can reduce the number of bulbs that are in use. I would prefer to go with an LED lighting setup but it's hard to tell how much I would need to spend in order to get adequate lighting for my tank size and what the optimal setup would be.

For the T5 unit I've been looking at this unit here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...443403&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1746wt_906

I also noticed in another post yesterday that someone had some metal poles that looked to be specially built to hang a light hood up over their tank; I haven't had a change to track down an online supplier but would welcome a link for a good source that anyone can recommend.

I was looking at the LED lighting that these guys sell on their site--two of the GroBeam 1000s plus two of the 500s would end up running me around $800--it's hard to tell from the specifications if that is enough light considering my tank is deeper than a 125 gallon.

http://americanaquariumproducts.com/LEDLights.html

Any recommendations you can make along the lines of lighting would be greatly appreciated. Something to note is that the tank is located in my office which is 10' x 11' on the upper story of my house and this room gets hot just by itself during the summer months; the AC runs most of the day just trying to keep it at 80 degrees when the sun is out and there's no cloud cover...so whatever I can do to to keep the lighting temperatures down. I'm also considering a portable AC unit for the room.

 

[citrite]

Bill,

I wrote a somewhat lengthy reply back to your post last night and received a message stating that the reply would be posted after it had been reviewed by a moderator...does anyone know how long it takes for this to occur? My previous reply posted right away so I'm unsure as to why this one did not go through last night.

 

[aquabillpers]

Bill,

I wrote a somewhat lengthy reply back to your post last night and received a message stating that the reply would be posted after it had been reviewed by a moderator...does anyone know how long it takes for this to occur? My previous reply posted right away so I'm unsure as to why this one did not go through last night.

Gee, Citrite, what you said must have been awful! LOL

It might have been too long. If so, you can send it to me via a PM and I'll respond to that.

Bill

 

[citrite]

I can't believe my post has vaporized! I'll try and keep these posts more brief--it's strange I've never had that happen to me in a forum before... I would PM you but I didn't save a copy of it which is really frustrating considering how much time I put into it.

Anyways, Hey Bill! I'm also Bill and I have a copy of Diana's book, "Ecology of ..." It's been about five years since I last looked at it and after reading some of the posts about some of the more soil based substrates and their need to be replenished I was looking to simplify and that's where the black onyx sand and pool filter sand came into play. But your post inspired me to reconsider a true soil based substrate--thanks so much!

I was looking at a 4x54 watt HO T5 unit for lighting but am also concerned about generating a lot of heat. The tank is located in my upstairs 10' x 11' office and it gets ridiculously hot during the full sun summer days up there. The AC runs a lot just trying to keep the upstairs temperature at 80 degrees. I was looking at some of the LED lighting but it's hard to tell with that lighting how much I might need. Any recommendation along these lines would be greatly appreciated as well since the eBay seller who was selling the T5 light hoods just sold out today--I guess I'm just being a lot more patient with this setup than I was in the past. I do have a window across the room from where the tank is located so it would get some indirect bright morning light from a SE exposure which ought to help as well.

Would the gravel type/brand make a difference? I would prefer sand but I guess that would end up settling under the soil eventually.

 

[citrite]

Bill,

The eBay store that I mentioned in my last post has listed the T5 light hood again that I've been looking at purchasing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/48-T5-HO-Aquarium-Light-Hood-Freshwater-Plant-216W-New-/290570604059?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a75b8e1b#ht_1746wt_906

On one hand it might be too much light for the "El Natural" method but I can always reduce the number of bulbs that are in use.

As I mentioned earlier I am very interested in looking at the LED lighting--sounds like it would keep the room cooler plus it will pay for itself in the long run. These guys seem to be very knowledgeable but it's difficult to determine how much light I would need. It sounds like at least two growbeam 1000s and two growbeam 500s.

http://americanaquariumproducts.com/LEDLights.html

 

[citrite]

Another post just vaporized and this was one was fairly short except it contained two links...is there an issue here with posts that contain links?