Low ph, Water Quality Report, a Question...

[pat w]

Attached is a copy of the water quality report from where I live. Note the low alkalinity (KH) of 8.13 ppm. Gh is also very low. I'm adding GH booster as per EI guidelines so I'm assuming I'm Ok there.

My ph is down around 6.0 or possibly lower while I'm injecting CO2. Again no problem by what I've read so far, but ... I bought some Tiger Nerite snails and after some research I'm worried that the low ph might begin to leach away their shells.

Valid concern or just blow it off?

If valid, what to do?

Water Quality Report link:
http://www.daphneutilities.com/daphne/2006%20Daphne%20PDF.pdf

Pat

 

[Oreo]

I would just give it a try & see. These snail shells aren't like clam shells or coral from the ocean which are primarily made of calcium like our bones. These snail shells are more like crab shells which are made of a slightly different, more fibrous substance which shouldn't deteriorate as fast in very mildly acidic environments. My aquarium keeps a 6.5pH while the CO2 is on and I've had the same 10 snails in there for several months now. No problems. I think the shell deterioration most people see is from the snails eating each other's shells, not from acidic water. If it were acidic water they would deteriorate evenly all over, but what we commonly see is just a patchy deterioration that isn't even the same on all the snails in a tank. That's indicative of a problem more localized then the water quality.

 

[pat w]

Works for me.

Thanks for the responce.

Pat

 

[Biollante]

Or A Little Wallboard In Tank

Hi Pat,

Or, just add a little more Calcium, I am partial to CaCl2, but that is controversial around here.

If the snails are lacking Calcium, other critters and your plants likely are as well.

Biollante

 

[pat w]

Wallboard? ...

I ment to respond to this earlier but I got sidetracted.

I gotta know ... just how would you add wallboard?{kidding}

Really, I'm still a bit concerned ... KH - 0-8.13ppm range GH 12.8ppm at the tap. I'm adding GHbooster but is this sufficiently out of the norm to go beyond standard EI guidelines?

Critters seem fine right now. (Oto's, SAE's, Nerite Snails)

Pat

 

[Biollante]

Plaster of Paris

Hi Pat,

Wallboard is made of gypsum, so a poor attempt at humor. High quality plaster of Paris is a good source as well. I was responding to your original post that stated low GH and 13-ppm GH is certainly low.

The shells of the snails are primarily Calcium carbonate, indeed are an excellent indicator of Calcium and if the Calcium is that low it is very likely negatively affecting other fauna as well as the flora.

I like to see GH somewhere around 6-7-dGH something in the range of 110-ppm GH.

In your case that would be 10 tablespoons (~93 grams (in real life I would use 100 grams)) of good quality plaster of Paris. In addition, one tablespoon (~15 grams) of Epsom salts. The plaster of Paris and Epsom salts can be added dry if you like; the gypsum may take a while to dissolve fully.

Not trying to provoke the ire of the Plant Guru Team, I would also add two of tablespoons of CaCl2.2H2O (~22 grams), if you have CaCl2.6H2O, just go a little heavy on the measure. Living where you do anhydrous CaCl2 will become Calcium chloride dihydrate very quickly anyway. Calcium chloride needs to be mixed and cooled prior to dosing the tank.

Personally, I like to see the KH higher as well, but that one really gets me in trouble so I will leave that for another day. :gw

Biollante

 

[pat w]

I'm gonna get it for this one ...

What about swimming pool grade (80%-85% Pure) Calcium Chloride? I've got pounds of that stuff.

{waiting patiently to be beaten about the head and shoulders for the suggestion}

Pat

 

[Biollante]

My Kind of Solution... Literally

Hi Pat,

{Obligatory warnings}

• The only concern about using CaCl2 would be some folks say that Chloride levels should not exceed 140-ppm. My experience along with Tom Barr’s http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6909-CaCl2-amp-MgSO4?p=46687#post46687 do not suggest a problem.
• CaCl2 gets hot, sometimes very hot during dissolution.
• Do not mix Calcium chloride (CaCl2) and Epsom salt (MgSO4.7H2O) in the same container prior to adding to the aquarium.
• Plant Guru Team members may yet beat you severely.

To start.

• Those warnings out of the way I recommend 33 (Edit: 11 not 33) tablespoons (Edit: 11 tablespoons is correct) (~150 grams) of CaCl2 (I am treating it as a hexa-hydrate for those keeping score) dissolved in a liter of distilled water added to the aquarium when cool.
• Then add one tablespoon Epsom salts to the aquarium.

For ongoing maintenance.

• On any major water change four teaspoons (~18 grams) of CaCl2 for every 10 gallons of water replaced.
• One third teaspoon (a light 2 grams) of Epsom salts for each 10 gallons of water replaced

I suspect this may help correct the algae problem.

Biollante

 

[pat w]

Just to verify 33 tablespoons = 2.0625 cups ~ 150 grams of the pool stuff in 1 liter of distilled/RO water added to approx. 80 gallon water volume in the tank.

It's just that seems like a lot. I wanted to be sure.

Exothemric with water, watch the temp rise - check.

Pat

 

[pat w]

Me thinks me seez that what bugged me ...

In your post you said ...

I recommend 33 tablespoons (~150 grams) of CaCl2

And then later ...

On any major water change four teaspoons (~18 grams) of CaCl2 for every 10 gallons of water replaced.

Biollante

If four teaspoons is 18 grams then 33 tablespoons would be around 445 grams.

I'm assuming you ment 33 teaspoons.

Pat

 

[Biollante]

Oops!

Hi Pat,

Good catch!

Indeed, I meant 11 tablespoons that is 33 teaspoons, approximately 150 grams of CaCl2.6H2O.

I will edit post #8 to avoid confusing anyone further.

I do not think the extra CaCl2 would have caused any harm, though mixing it into a liter of water might have been interesting.

Thanks,
Biollante

 

[pat w]

Potassium ... It's in there

Here's the MSDS for the stuff. Got a little K in there.

3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
________________________________________________________
Component..................Percentage..............CAS Number
Calcium chloride..........> 83 - < 87..............10043-52-4
Potassium Chloride........> 2 - < 3................7447-40-7
Water...........................> 8 - < 14..............7732-18-5
Sodium chloride ............> 1 - < 2...............7647-14-5
________________________________________________________

Any adjustments needed?

http://msds.oxy.com/DWFiles/M48006_NA_EN%231.pdf

Pat

 

[Biollante]

We Sure To Get A Beatin' Now

Hi Pat,

No problem with the product analysis, as is common there is likely a little more of this and a bit less of that. One of the reasons I never advise calculating anything beyond two significant digits.

You should end up with around 6-dGH, say 100-ppm GH, or round about. I like 6 to 7-dGH, though anywhere from 4-20-dGH is fine for most purposes as long as we are reasonably sure the vast majority is from Calcium.

Now about your alkalinity… real trouble here…

Unless you have plans for fussy plants, that just cannot tolerate alkalinity, I like to see something in the range of 6-8 dKH somewhere between 100 and 140-ppm KH.

The simplest way to accomplish this is to mix 12 teaspoons (~157 grams) of baking soda (not powder), NaHCO3 into a liter of distilled water and add 100 ml every couple of hours. No precision on the timing just add a bit at least a couple of hours apart over a couple of days. Likely not a big issue, just better safe than sorry.
​

Then at each water change add 1.5 teaspoons (~7 grams) of baking soda for each 10 gallons of water replaced.
​

This should leave you with 7.5 dKH call it 130-ppm. :gw

Biollante

 

[pat w]

Following the yellow(er ..white chauky) brick road ...

Ok, I did the GH (CaCl2 & MgSO4.7H2O). I'm going to hold off on the KH and watch the tank a while to see if I notice any changes. Meanwhile, I have the CO2 and flow improvements to make (baby steps).

I'm also working on a way to give myself more height adjustment for my lighting. I'm doing this partially in preparation for participation in Gerry's 'PAR Around the World' lighting project.

Later,
Pat

 

[Biollante]

CaCl2 & MgSO4 Do Not Play Well Together

Ok, I did the GH (CaCl2 & MgSO4.7H2O). I'm going to hold off on the KH and watch the tank a while to see if I notice any changes. Meanwhile, I have the CO2 and flow improvements to make (baby steps).

I'm also working on a way to give myself more height adjustment for my lighting. I'm doing this partially in preparation for participation in Gerry's 'PAR Around the World' lighting project.

Later,
Pat

Hi Pat,

Separately one hopes.

CaCl2 and MgSO4 mixed together making a minor mess and creating a precipitate that dissolves very slowly in the aquarium, no harm just somewhat funky and a bit slower to enter solute in the aquarium.

Solutions of CaCl2 and separate solutions of MgSO4 ought to be reasonably clear.

Biollante

 

[pat w]

Not to Worry

Separately one hopes.

Yup.
Caught that in one of your responses in another thread.

Pat

 

[pat w]

Not to Worry

duplicate post - sorry

 

[pat w]

Plan to add the NaHCO3 incrementally according to this schedule.

Problems?

Pat

 

[Biollante]

Should Work

Hi Pat,

No, I do not see a problem.

I normally would just add a bit 2-4 times a day over the course of 3 days or so. I tend to be a bit cautious.

When I write this stuff out I always sound so precise, then people visit me in person… Well, it blows the whole image.

Biollante

 

[pat w]

This is just as easy, if not more.
Just a little more each WC as I do battle.

It's me or the Rhizo and I was here first.

Over on APC I was told the low KH could adversly affect the bio-filter. Your thoughts?


New pumps coming tomorrow. Then I start serious work on the CO2 ... I know, baby steps.

Thanks for the help,
Pat