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Limnophila aromatic are melting, and I realy dont see why!!

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by el_tubaron, Oct 14, 2009.

  1. el_tubaron

    el_tubaron Junior Poster

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    Hello,
    I hope some could help me to identify a macro or micro fert. deficiency, because I do not see what could be.

    First my Setup:
    Aquarium:
    150cmx50cmx50cm - 375L (100G)
    Light:
    3x70w HQI 5400K - 10 hours daily
    Filter:
    sump with 70l and 2 pumps Eheim 1250
    1 Koralia1
    Substrate:
    Seachem Flourite substrate fertile
    Fertilization:
    Jame's PMDD + PO4
    20ml daily macros + 10ml Seachem flourish (Micros)
    CO2 - 6b / s beginning 2 hours before turning on the lights and 1 hour after the lights turn off

    Parameters (API tests):
    KH = 6
    GH = 6
    PO4 = 1ppm / 1,5 ppm
    NO4 = 10ppm / 15ppm

    The photos:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The Problem:
    The Limnophila aromatic are melting (rot) the tips (young leaves) and with many holes and cutouts in old leaves(see photo 3 and 4). The rest of the other plants do not have the symptom of melt (rot) the tips, however a Cryptocoryne wendtii green also has holes in old leaves (see photo 1 2 ).
    I do not see what the deficiency, because the parameter PO4 AND NO3 are ok (well I think they are :lol: )
    só micros? Fe? ???

    Algea:
    GreenSpots in small quantities in glass and BBA at the outlet of the filter tubes in very very small quantities.

    Thanks

    PS: Sorry about my poor English but my native language is Portuguese :wink:
     
  2. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    It looks like a potassium deficiency to me. How much potassium are you dosing?

    -Philosophos
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Looks more like CO2.

    If you use PMDD+PO4(James' version), then it's not likely you are absent any nutrient.

    With 70 watts of HQI metal halide light, this is more than you might think.

    Try raising the light about 10 cm from where you have it now if possible.

    This should help with most issues.

    Also, ask the people at Aquariofilia.net (Powered by Invision Power Board)
    If they have a video of my talk in Lisboa, it should offer you some ideas.

    I'd try and increase circulation and cleaning more, and add a small amount more of CO2. Do this little by little and carefully watch the aquario. Be careful not to harm fish with CO2!!!


    Tom Barr
     
  4. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    CO2 deficiency causes holes that look similar to a lack of potassium?

    I'm just looking over Jame's Planted Tank PMDD page:
    James' Planted Tank - PMDD

    at the dosing quantities they're talking about N:K is 1:1 and weekly doses are 10.5ppm of each. Isn't that a little lean and asking for a deficiency in one of the two given 210w?

    -Philosophos
     
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Written Prior to Last Two Posts

    I wrote this a bit ago and probably would be wise of me not to post, but that would be akin to being smart.

    I agree with both Philosophos and Tom Barr, for the little that is worth.
    ****************************************************


    Hi,

    The standard James’ PMDD solution is

    Macros
    25g Potassium Nitrate
    2.8g Potassium Phosphate (monobasic)
    11g Potassium Sulphate
    20g Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
    500 ml distilled water
    Standard dosing is 2ml per 10 gallons.

    Micros
    10g Chelated Trace Element Mix
    250ml Water
    0.5ml Normal Hydrochloric Acid
    Standard dosing is 1ml per 10 gallons.

    If it is his ‘all-in-one’

    10g Potassium Nitrate
    1.2g Potassium Phosphate (monobasic)
    4.0g Potassium Sulphate
    8.0g Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
    6g EDTA Chelated Trace Elements Mix
    0.5g E300 Ascorbic Acid
    0.2g E202 Potassium Sorbate
    500ml distilled water

    If you wish to change the amounts of ingredients then as long as the levels aren't changed too much you can leave the amounts of Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate the same.
    Dosing is 5ml per 40 litres

    Each 5ml dose adds:
    1.5 ppm Nitrate
    0.2 ppm Phosphate
    1.5 ppm Potassium
    0.2 ppm Magnesium

    Information obtained from James' Planted Tank Web Page.

    Either way I agree with Philosophos, potassium deficiency seems the most likely, though I would not rule out iron.

    Of course lighting, CO2 and circulation are all far more important than any nutrient or combination of nutrients. The BGA and green spot algae suggest CO2/circulation as an issue.

    Without knowing your tap water, and if your test kit has been calibrated the NO3 and PO4 readings don’t really help us.

    Biollante
     
  6. el_tubaron

    el_tubaron Junior Poster

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    That was my first idea, but 25 days adding more 5ppm K daily + PMDD+PO4. and no results... so I dont think is K deficiency (It was to easy lol)

    well I already have 6b/s but I can increase more....

    So you think I have to much light, Interesting... in that case the plants reduce is metabolism and the nutrients needs... My HQI are 30cm high.

    I think nobody have this because I didn't ear about it. But that could be cool :)

    I already put a koralia to increase the circulation... but I can always put another one. but I see the leafs moving (circulation) and the drop cheker are ligth green (with 4kh solution).

    if it is true, I didnt know that !!!!!!
    that is what I use (20ml to 100g) and 10ml Micros every day.

    Well I start to dosing FE yesterday.... wait and see

    So Im gone increase the CO2... and add more circulation...

    PS: today I saw more leafs and structure rot in the aromatica... It seams that she gone die :(

    tks
    Victor Pinto
     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Victor,

    I was operating off a hand held device when I posted that and I really did not get everything in, I am kind of ‘wordy’.

    It would have been nice had you mentioned all of your dosing in the first post.

    Is there anything else you are doing on a regular basis?

    What are you using to get 5 ppm K? I would stop that or use about 1/5 for now.

    Do you change at least 50% of your water each week? If you do not, or have not changed large amounts of water, I recommend a 70-80% water change immediately, followed two days later by a 50% water change. Dose full nutrients after the water change.

    What are you using to dose iron?

    Flourish would work to increase the iron; I would double your current dosing. If you are using Flourish Plus Iron I would dose 6 or 7 milliliter per day.

    In CO2 the bubbles per second doesn’t really tell us much, we are looking for 30 ppm as a minimum, I like to target closer to 40 ppm. Primarily observe your critters, make changes to your CO2 in small increments.

    Hydor Koralia is an excellent choice in powerheads and pumps. Which one do you have?

    I agree with raising the lights another 10-15 centimeters, that really reduces the amount of CO2 and nutrients required, as the situation stabilizes and comes back under control then if you wish to change the lighting for aesthetics you can adjust accordingly. Right now, it is all about getting thing under control and making your plants and critters happy.

    Biollante

    Edit: I removed a line dealing with phosphate that I had inadvertently pasted from another post.
     
  8. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    el_tubaron,

    Whilst I can't speak about your specific species of plant, as I have not kept this species, I have seen very similar symptoms in a number of my other plants. Not that long ago, I too was finding holes in my H.Polysperma, then stems were rotting etc etc.

    Tom recommended looking into the CO2 - which I did - and now the problem is solved.

    To start off with, I actually re-directed the outflow from my CO2 reactor directly onto the affected plant whilst also ramping up the CO2 rate a little bit.

    Like magic, within days the plant started looking better and then took off....

    Try blasting it with some good CO2 enriched water and see what happens, it's a pretty easy experiment, although you should probably give it a good week or so before drawing any conclusions. Oh, and if there are any leaves or stems that are already a goner, I don't think you will be able to save these, so don't let them influence the conclusion that you draw.

    If you think it's a potasium issue - why not just pick up some Potasium Sulphate from the gardening shop and dose it? Very easy to rule out Potasium.

    But don't do this experiment and the CO2 one at the same time as, assuming you have success, you won't be clear on what fixed the problem! ;-)

    My 10 cents worth, not an expert, but thought I would try to help.

    Scott.
     
  9. el_tubaron

    el_tubaron Junior Poster

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    Sorry, ok, so

    Fertilization:
    Macro: Jame's PMDD+PO4 recipe (20ml)
    Micro: Seachem flourish (10ml)

    the K was KCL and I stop dosing last sunday (as I said I didnt saw improvmente)

    The FE just started (flourish Iron)

    That's all.

    I change about 30% each week.

    I know that the bubbles per second (it is just for compare), I use a drop checker to adjust the CO2 - it is Ligth green

    I have Hydor Koralia1 1500l/h + 1500l/h from the filter is about 3000l/h I thougth it was a good flow rate... (Maybe another Koralia!!).

    after tomorrow I will raise the lights (to stabilizes the nutrients requirement)

    thanks.
    Victor
     
  10. el_tubaron

    el_tubaron Junior Poster

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    Good idea, at least I can see directly whats happen in the plant species (The Limnophila aromatic).

    Tks
    Victor
     
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