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Last chance - Green Thread Algae

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by dan_lup, Jun 9, 2012.

  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Dan,

    Often times when you remove one limitation, another takes its place.
    If you were strongly limiting say PO4, then added a lot of PO4=> this often increased the growht rate and thereby demand for CO2.

    1. If the CO2 was good for both limiting PO4 and non limiting PO4 for the plants= excellent growth+ no algae
    2. If the CO2 was good for limiting PO4 but not sufficient for non limiting PO4= somewhat better growth, but algae

    This is directly explained by Liebig's law of the Minimum.

    It predicts this.

    Aquarist have troubles with CO2: adjusting it, measuring it, killing fish and getting algae.
    Nutrients are VERY EASY to adjust however.

    We would be tempted to assume that PO4 excess ppm cause algae, unless............we had examples where the plant growth and is excellent and there is no algae, only a vibrant tank full of fish and plants.
    This falsifies the claim that excess PO4 is the root cause, it CANNOT be, otherwise my tanks for the last 15+ years would be filled with algae, instead, I sell about 200-400 $ month worth of plants and the aquariums are relatively decently scaped.

    Light and CO2 adjustments will help far more than nutrients.

    Tropica has a good article on how the 2 interact: CO2 and light and is in various languages.
     
  2. Petex

    Petex Member

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    Liebig's law explains if one nutrition is not availible (or limiting) that even dosing the other nutritions can not balance this.
    But this did not automaticly mean that bad plant grow or bad Co2 adjustment will always result in any algae outbreak and this can simply be proofed:
    Take a clean box with clean tap water and put as much light as you can do over it and tell me in 1month what algae you got.
    And I think you should normally not get any single thread algae, because "good" Tap water did not contain any algae spores.
    So that means thread algae will always be transfered with new plants.
    The cause is Not light and also not nutritions like PO4, just putting new/unclean plants in a tank are the primary key-reasons for most algaes.
    Certainly once you have introduced any algae in a tank, much light and worst plant conditions will help a lot each algae to grow just even better.

    So most ppl. focus on their plant grow, because if plant grow is good, the plants may ouperform some algae.
    But we may consider: If you have a tank like Dan without any (thread) algae eaters like Amano shrimp and so on. .. it will most likely not work to get such a (high light) tank really full algaefree even if you adjust Co2+ferts pretty good..
    Having a tank with or without Algae eaters makes a very huge difference and even the best plant grow can never do what algae eaters can do for us:
    Algae eaters will eat algaes, plants not. ;)
     
    #22 Petex, Jun 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2012
  3. Florin Ilia

    Florin Ilia Lifetime Charter Member
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  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Liebig's law can also include CO2 and light since those are both (potential) limitations in aquariums, as well as flow, density of the plants, even temperature etc.

    Several illustrations include this:

    http://www.jseco.co.uk/services/facts-advice-service

    http://fws.cc/udontham/index.php?topic=163.0
     
  5. dan_lup

    dan_lup Prolific Poster

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    hi, guys. just finished the weekly water change and pruning of plants. i also cleaned the external filter. my back is killing me :)
    i changed the lightning schedule for 2 T5 for 8 hours (4 hours 2 tubes and 4 hours the other 2 tubes).

    I will try the fertilisation scheme provided by Tug (thank you , again):
    Right after the 50% water change;
    4mL Nitro
    10mL Fosfo
    10mL ProFito


    The other 6 days;
    2mL Nitro
    10mL Fosfo
    10mL Profito

    I have a question, Tug: for the other 6 days, the scheme with Nitro, Fosfo and Profito is a daily one, right?

    @Tom Barr: I will continue with the full range of ferts. It was not a good idea to stop the dosing of a macro element
     
  6. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Dan,
    Correct, daily doses it is.

    If you can get it, don't forget the 1/2 teaspoon (about 3 grams) of Seachem Equilibrium once a week with the water change. Until you know your Ca, Mg levels are non-limiting. IME, the K+ in equilibrium dose not hurt anything and makes sure there is some for the plants - the NO3 from your tap might not provide potassium. If not equilibrium, dosing 15mL of Easy Life Potassium with the water change will make up for any levels of potassium not found in your tap water.

    All of these things together, proper filtration, water flow, appropriate lighting, manually removing the algae, etc., should turn the tide. You will see improvement in your plants but try the 3% Hydrogen peroxide treatment and the methods Garry mentions to fight algae for a one-two punch.
    Hang in there dog and get yourself a back massage.
     
    #26 Tug, Jun 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2012
  7. Wet

    Wet Lifetime Members
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    Just for the sake of accuracy and info, here's the ProFito numbers used by the calculator. Anyone have new results or some numbers from a label? Has Tobi mentioned any source he has? Happy to change these if incorrect.

    Code:
    Easy Life ProFito:
      Fe:     0.12
      K:      0.7
      Mg:     0.09
      dGH:    0.02
      Mg:     0.09
      Mn:     0.04
      I:      0.02
      B:      0.008
      Cu:     0.002
      Mo:     0.002
      Zn:     0.002
      Li:     0.002
      Ni:     0.001
      Al:     0.001
      Co:     0.001
      Sn:     0.001
      F:      0.001
      target: Fe
    
    If you ever want the numbers used by the calc by the way, you can find them here: https://github.com/flores/yet-another-nutrient-calculator/tree/master/constants

     
  8. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Just did some reading and found someone dosing ProFito on the same day they dosed PO4 resulted in cloudy water. Presumably, the Fe reacted with the PO4. Dan if this happens to you, please post. It might mean dosing every other day or spreading out the daily dose.

    P.S., thank you wet.
     
  9. dan_lup

    dan_lup Prolific Poster

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    good morning. i dose every morning before I leave for work. i didn't noticed anything unusual, but i will check this issue during the weekend. to be honest, i do not think that this think happened in my tank.

    i have 2 questions:
    1. at the end of the week i must change 50% of the water?
    2. if i dose 1/2 from the daily dose, can i change the water after 2 weeks?

    thank you

    dan
     
  10. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    On several occasions I noticed that tanks with EI fertilization might get low on traces with the standard amount of Profito. Double the amount of the prescription seems to be ok though.
     
  11. Petex

    Petex Member

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    Hi Wet,
    I guess the changes in his calculator were based on this 2 topics, where a User told that he asked the EasyLife support how much Fe/K it adds:
    http://www.flowgrow.de/nachricht168070.html
    http://www.flowgrow.de/naehrstoffe/profito-mit-kcl-mischbar-t19276.html
    The User posted an EasyLife Email and after doing so (I guess) the calculator was updated.

    But, I personlly don´t know what informations are true at last.
    And so obvisiouly, it would make perhaps sense to ask EasyLife to verifiy if those new informations are now finally correct (or not).
     
  12. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Some, maybe. It depends.

    Dan,
    Could you provide the amounts of nutrients listed on the bottle of Profito or contact Easy Life for an answer?

    I have gone two weeks on occasion without a water change and I dosed a little less in the second week but yes, at the very least, a 50% water change. Some of your questions would be easier to answer if you had an exact analasis of what is in your tap water to begin with. Are you getting your water tested?

    As far as dosing half the amounts. Based on what duchy has experienced, I personally would not reduce the amount of Profito even if you go two weeks between water changes.

    I would keep the dose fore Nitro at 2mL a day during the second week.

    If you only dosed 5mL of the Fosfo a day during the second week or missed a day or two you might be fine but for the first week I would keep the dose to 10mL a day. Keep your eyes open for any Green Spot Algae. The presence of GSA seems to be an indication of low levels of CO2 and PO4 in planted tanks. In my case GSA got worse rather quickly when I tried dosing less phosphate (PO4).
     
  13. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Dan,
    I just thought I should say, you have a very nice tank and with consistent dosing, weekly water changes and more attention to CO2 it will only continue to get better.
     
  14. dan_lup

    dan_lup Prolific Poster

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    no details are provided on the bottle of ProFito. i will send them an e-mail but i do not think that they will provide any detailed answer.

    regarding the tap water: a have an analysis from the provider of the water which was executed on 11.06 near my area:

    NH4:
     
  15. dan_lup

    dan_lup Prolific Poster

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    hi. i just received the answer from easylife.nl

    ProFito

    GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
    Total Nitrogen: 0.03% * Available Phosphate (P2O5): 0% * Soluble Potash (K2O): 0.58% * Iron (Fe): 0.24% * Magnesium (Mg): 0.09% * Boron (B): 0.008% * Copper (Cu): 0.0002% * Manganese (Mn) : 0.04% * Molybdenum (Mo): 0.002% * Zinc (Zn) : 0.002%. Derived from Pentetic Acid, Potassium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Magnesium Chloride, Boric Acid, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Molybdate, Zinc Sulfate.
     
  16. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    It took them long enough.

    I passed the information on to wet.
    I've got to say, their product looks a little wonky to me but unless your seeing something terribly wrong I wouldn't change your doses - until advised otherwise. The chelating agent is pentetic acid which I believe is DTPA. Anybody with a brain out there? My straw is burning.
     
    #36 Tug, Jun 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2012
  17. Petex

    Petex Member

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    Man, I am not good in doing math. :p
    What means the analysis now and what calculator was right at last? :confused:
     
  18. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    To me it means several things;
    1. The chelating agent is pentetic acid (DTPA). Good stuff.
    2. It explains the difference in Dutchy's observation and wet's recommended dose.
    3. Based on the analysis provided by dan_lup, wet's nutrient calculator is low by about half. To me that means, the 10mL dose provides 0.2 ppm of iron, not 0.1 ppm as it reads on the calculator. Not a problem - due to our frugality we got lucky and added an amount that insured non-limited trace. From there it is much easier to adjust the dose down a little, once a week or two, until the plants are showing signs of nutrient deficiency. Any reduction in dosing should be done gradually.
    4. The product analysis also lists a good amount of K2O in Profito. So while I was concerned about adding K once a week by using a GH booster, that shouldn't be necessary. There could be a need to add Mg but with 8.7 dGH it's likely the water has plenty of both Ca and Mg. But, it's good to know how much of each you have just in case the GH is mostly made up of Ca as happens in some places.

    Wet is in the process of updating the nutrient calculator. The feedback and posts have been very helpful in this regard. I have also asked wet to include an option that provides ppm based on the percentage of stuff listed on a product's label. That should provide a way to double check the calculations it provides for a product and reduces the need to add an endless list of new products.
     
    #38 Tug, Jul 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2012
  19. dan_lup

    dan_lup Prolific Poster

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    hello again. after a "cool" holiday in the netherlands with temperatures around 20 degrees celsius, i came back in the "boiling" romania with temperatures around 34 degrees during day.

    my experiment with half doses and 2 weeks water change was not a success. the plants are not looking good and the algaes are creeping back into the tank (including GSA).

    i will get back to the dosage schedule recomended bu Tug, but i will try to make the water change at 2 weeks. therefore:
    1st week (dosing per day): PROFITO: 10ML; FOSFO: 10ML; NITRO: 1ML
    2nd week (dosing per day): PROFITO: 10 ML; FOSFO: 5 ML; NITRO: 2ML

    will keep you updated
     
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Dan, I think the algae issue is CO2, CO2 and CO2.

    I've tried lower dosing for algae for a long time on many planted tanks, they slow things down, but at the expense of the plant health as well.
    Like everyone, we all get frustrated, so we try any thing.

    Current, rates of degassing, filtration type, fish all play a role with CO2.

    It's often times not as simple as adding more CO2.
    But I will say I've yet to see any evidence that supports a direct relationship between higher ferts/nutrients and algae blooms, poor plant health etc.

    I recently had some green hair algae in 2 tanks, the 70 Gal and the 120. I also have very high light in those tanks.
    Even the light factor while certainly helps the algae, is not a direct function either.

    With more light, you do get more CO2 demand however.

    So that as well goes back to CO2 once again.

    The green hair algae in my 120 got pretty bad.
    I was very aggressive and tried H2O2 but this did little.
    For mild cases perhaps.

    CO2 solved the issue basically.

    Same for about 95% of every algae issue I've ever had and helped other people out with, the rest was mostly basic care/maybe adding more ferts.
     
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