Large tanks > 120 gals, c02, and EI - responses wanted

Gerryd

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Bubble rate is fast, can't really count it. 10lb Co2 tank lasts about 3 weeks keeping DC yellowish/green

This comment is another reason why I wanted this info and posted this thread.

I use a 10 lb tank in 2 weeks keeping the DC yellowish/green myself. I can find no leaks anywhere and I use a Mazzei.

I keep thinking I must have a leak or am doing something wrong, but it may be just that this is what my tank needs to keep my c02 ranges where they need to be.

Thanks for posting!
 

Mooner

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Here is how I recently found a leak in a name brand regulator.

Reverse your regulator for the lower pressure setting until the diaphragm has zero pressure against it. Leave the needle valve alone for this test. With full tank pressure showing on the high pressure gauge(and recorded) shut off the tank main valve. This is initiated at lights off and stays this way until lights on. This test is for the high pressure side of the regulator. If there is any decrease in pressure by morning there is a leak. If pressure holds then your fine. Re pressurize and go after it with soapy water. My leak was found between the tank stem and the regulator(factory assembled). I had to get a special sealant rated at 1200psi to fix.
For the longest time I thought it was the washer between the tank and stem. The loss was huge and I figured that I lost half the capacity of the tank through this leak.
 

Gerryd

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Chris,

Great idea! I will give this a shot tonight........

I kept assuming the same, the washer at the reg stem...........Checked with my regulator supplier and my c02 supplier to ensure I was using the correct washer and apparently I am.......

Since I only use 12" of airline tubing and a check valve and no bubble counter from the regulator to the Mazzei, I checked this tubing and valve under water, and no issues there.

I am now not sure whether to hope this could be my issue, as then I will know, or to hope no issue, and be sentenced to bi-monthly trips to the c02 store lol

Thanks again.
 
M

mrkookm

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Back when I used my 10lb on my 90gal, with CPR 150 overflow & open 3ft sump (no sealing) my tank lasted for 2½ months with my Mazzei 384. 2~3 weeks is suspect and either Co2 diffusion is not efficient as you think or their is a leak.

I now use a 50lb Alu tank and currently going on 7 months for the same cost to refil the 10lb alu tank. You might want to consider going that route as well :)
 

Gerryd

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hey mrkookm.

2~3 weeks is suspect and either Co2 diffusion is not efficient as you think or their is a leak

I agree completely with this. I am now trying a larger pump on my Mazzei (584) to see if this helps....Am using a mag 500gph and going to a mag 9.5. I have a throttle valve, so cannot overload it....Will also try different placement of the Mazzei away from the pump......

I would LOVE a 20 or 50 lb tank, but my apt is pretty small and I can keep the 10 under the cabinet......

If I went to a 50 lb, does it get delivered lol. Not sure I could even get one that size in my car......

My biggest issue with this tank is c02 supply and diffusion. One day (and soon) I will get it resolved........

Thanks for the info.
 

JDowns

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ccLansman;27505 said:
I know i have seen this some where before but cant find it, what is the misting from? I also have the inline reactor and never see any misting. Is the misting good / bad?


The mist comes out of the canister's output. Where no CO2 is being injected. I can only assume that given the daily time frame when the mist occurs, that the O2 from the plants is being compressed as it passes through the canister/pumps/plumbing that it forms larger bubbles that appear as mist.


2 weeks ? I use a 20lb bottle and it lasts me just over 6 months. I just refilled Thursday. I started with that bottle January 7th. I would question whether you have a leak or you are injecting alot of CO2 that is being outgassed.

Another interesting topic would be how much of a surface ripple does each person use. I feel that people may just be over agitating their surface.
 

Gerryd

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2 weeks ? I use a 20lb bottle and it lasts me just over 6 months. I just refilled Thursday. I started with that bottle January 7th. I would question whether you have a leak or you are injecting alot of CO2 that is being outgassed.

Your comment only reinforces my belief that something is wrong with my setup.......You are not the first one to question this lol I have a large sump and twin overflows, so de-gassing is an issue. Sump is sealed as much as possible, and the overflow waterfall depth is 2.5". Very gentle fall, no real turbulence in there. I will try to get it to 1" or less.

EDIT: I just reduced the overflow fall to about .25" in each one. This should help a bit.

Another interesting topic would be how much of a surface ripple does each person use. I feel that people may just be over agitating their surface.

Not much of one for me. Only my HOT magnum disrupts the surface and that is a very gentle ripple. All of my loc-line is way under the water level, as well as all of my Koralias...
 

bibbels

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I wish I could fit a bottle larger than 10 lbs under my stand - oh well. There is a closet on the other side of the wall the tank is against, I might look into mounting a larger bottle (like 50 lbs) in there and running the line through the wall.
My initial 10lb bottle lasted a couple months. I'm now certain my CO2 concentrations were well below what I needed but I had difficulties getting my imitation ADA DC's at the time (took 6 weeks and 3 shipments to get me some unbroken with shipping time from Hong Kong).

I plan to seal my sump at some point down the road when I am fairly sure I won't make anymore hardware changes in there. I cut sheets of acrylic when I first set up the tank but have since changed pumps and most of the plumbing since then. I dont think I offgas too much CO2 from the overflows, the water only falls ~1/2" and the water enters the sump under the water surface (I have no wet/dry section).

Another interesting topic would be how much of a surface ripple does each person use. I feel that people may just be over agitating their surface.

I have minimal surface ripple/agitation. My sump returns are pointed downward to help with flow over HC and Glosso in the foreground.

I'm considering changing to Mazzei at some point as I feel I already need to upgrade my pump for incresed flow. Just tring to make the best of my reactor for now since it is already paid for:D It seems to work well after performing the venturi mod and adding the needle wheel impeller. It pulls pH down a full point in ~30-45 min and gives a very fine mist that's not detectable unless your face is to the glass. I like the mist for the added benefit of being able to see flow patterns in the tank from it.
 

Gerryd

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Hi Chris,

Reverse your regulator for the lower pressure setting until the diaphragm has zero pressure against it. Leave the needle valve alone for this test. With full tank pressure showing on the high pressure gauge(and recorded) shut off the tank main valve. This is initiated at lights off and stays this way until lights on. This test is for the high pressure side of the regulator. If there is any decrease in pressure by morning there is a leak. If pressure holds then your fine.

I tried the above steps last night and checked it just now after 10 hours with one hour to go before it is due to go on.

High pressure has remainded steady at the same reading as last night. Tank is full and was filled just the other day.

So based on this, it appears that the high side is okay.

bibbels,

My initial 10lb bottle lasted a couple months. I'm now certain my CO2 concentrations were well below what I needed

Yes, when I used an AM1000 reactor with venturi mod, my 10 lb also lasted several months. However, I could tell by the DC colors, PH, and other observations that I was not providing sufficient c02, compared to what I get out of the Mazzei currently.........

Waiting for my new bigger Mazzei pump and will see how that goes.............

I still find it suspicious that we go through so much c02 in such as short time........

But since I have no leaks (apparently that I can find), it has to be the way my Mazzei is setup/plumbed????

I will keep plugging away.

Thanks for all of the tips and info.
 

JJP2

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I am going to go from my 60 gallon to 120 or more. I am wondering if people are finding cannisters or sumps work better?
 

Mooner

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Gerryd;27930 said:
I tried the above steps last night and checked it just now after 10 hours with one hour to go before it is due to go on.

High pressure has remainded steady at the same reading as last night. Tank is full and was filled just the other day.

So based on this, it appears that the high side is okay.

Sounds good Gerry,

when mine was leaking it was losing 200-300 psi on the high side in 9-10 hrs.
 

JDowns

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JDowns;27451 said:
  1. 150 US Gallons
  2. Mist and Reactor / DC to yellow
  3. HO T5 240 wpg for 8hrs
  4. Daily dosing normal EI with double the P
  5. Marineland C360 with Mag 9.5 as a booster. Mag 9.5 with DIY water polisher/reactor. Mag 7 added circulation.
  6. No operational overflow or sump

Not sure on bps. I'll have to try hard to count and add up both bubble counters to try and get a good number

Tank setup has changed.

]
  1. 150 US Gallons
  2. Mist and Reactor / DC to yellow
  3. Mag 5 distributing mist single output
  4. NuClear 533 and 547 fed by dual Mag 9.5 in parallel to dual outputs.
  5. 5 individual locline ends directionalizing flow
  6. Overflow box at .25" drop
  7. HO T5 240 wpg for 8hrs
  8. Daily dosing normal EI

Now that I have much better circulation/filtration throughout the entire tank. Going back to straight EI and see if the improved circulation makes up for the need for increased phosphate dosage. I have a sneaky suspicion that a lack of PO4 was not the issue, rather inadequate circulation/filtration.
 

Gerryd

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Hey Jdowns,

Got pics? Need to post them. A pic is worth a thousand words, or so I have heard.....

Old
1. 150 US Gallons
New
1. 150 US Gallons

So, this did NOT change? lol

4. NuClear 533 and 547 fed by dual Mag 9.5 in parallel to dual outputs.

So one mag 9.5 for each NC? On separate lines but then merge later?

5. 5 individual locline ends directionalizing flow

So, I'm thinking 2 each for each of the NC lines and one for the mag 5 c02 mist output if not merged as I thought above?

Old
6. No operational overflow or sump
New
6. Overflow box at .25" drop

So did you add a sump, or just surface skimming with the overflow that is feeding into the canister loop? Details please.

Did you remove the C360?

Are you happy overall with the changes?

How do you like the NC'S?

Is your water clarity improved, overall cleanliness?

Good luck with all of your changes.
 

JDowns

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Gerryd;28498 said:
Hey Jdowns,

Got pics? Need to post them. A pic is worth a thousand words, or so I have heard.....

Old

New


So, this did NOT change? lol



So one mag 9.5 for each NC? On separate lines but then merge later?



So, I'm thinking 2 each for each of the NC lines and one for the mag 5 c02 mist output if not merged as I thought above?

Old

New


So did you add a sump, or just surface skimming with the overflow that is feeding into the canister loop? Details please.

Did you remove the C360?

Are you happy overall with the changes?

How do you like the NC'S?

Is your water clarity improved, overall cleanliness?

Good luck with all of your changes.


I'll get some pics up this week. Camera is on loan right now.

Old photo though will help explain.

top.jpg


The overflow is now outfitted with a 1" thinwall pipe for inputs about 16" tall. With (4) 1/2" holes in the overflow (overflow regulators) open I get 1/4" to 1/3" drop for surface skimming.

Below that a 1" ballvalve, then a "T" for dual ouptuts. 1" hose connects to each Mag 9.5. Each Mag 9.5 feeds to a 1" Manifold Wye. Then 1" line to the 533. A 1" union connects the 533 to the 547. Then a 1" line connects to another Wye. From there its (2) 3/4" lines with ball valves to the two closest bulkheads in the above picture to the overflow. Locline fittings with wyes to give 4 seperate fittings for flow directed around the tank. The startup pressure for the NuClears is now 5 psi with the added 547 and new piping.

Farthest top bulkheads fead the Mag 5 input/output. This is setup with a 100 micron prefilter to catch Co2 from a diffuser and spread the mist. I will probably add a Mazzei setup here. Although I'm happy with everything right now so its tough to keep changing things. I had to remove the Mag 7, since it was too much flow now in the tank.


The C360 is collecting dust as of now. I can't imagine not purchasing this type of setup again. Much more versatile and very cost effective.

I love the NC's. As far as overall cleanliness, I can't speak of as of yet. I do like the fact that I tripled my biological and have a much more effecient mechanical filtration now though.

CO2: Half the CO2 is fed to the misting portion and half to the NC's for dissolving. Plants responded very well today to the changes. But overall it will take more time to view the plants and make an overall opinion how much better this is for the plants. But as far as flow/filtration/circulation. The old setup pales in comparision.
 

Gerryd

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Hey,

Farthest top bulkheads fead the Mag 5 input/output. This is setup with a 100 micron prefilter to catch Co2 from a diffuser and spread the mist. I will probably add a Mazzei setup here.

I had a mag 500 driving my 584 3/4 mazzei from 10" away and feeding right back into the sump pump and found this to not be ideal. The pump does not produce enough pressure to drive the venturi optimally.

I would switch the 5 with the 7 and that will help a bit if you add a venturi. Then since this is a high flow/low pressure pump, install a throttle valve AFTER the mazzei so you can create some pressure as the valve is closed, so the venturi performs better. That way the flow will be used up by the venturi and not be too much for the tank.

Glad to hear it is working out well.
 

Gilles

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1. Tank size.
2. Method of c02 injection. External reactor, Mazzei, needle wheel, etc. Bubble rate if possible.
3. Type and duration of lighting. MH, T5, T12, etc. Wpg please.
4. EI dosing numbers and schedule. Daily, 3x a week, etc.
5. Type and size of filter(s). Canisters, hang on, etc.
6. Type and size of any extra water pumps or powerheads for additional flow/current.
7. Overflow boxes or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.
8. Sump or not, as this affects c02 de-gassing.

1. 130x60x60cm
2. External reactor, which is in the last compartment of my sump, meaning co2 enriched water is going to all outlets in the tank
3. 6xT5 54w: 15 hours; meaning in the afternoon 324 watts (with reflectors)
4. Dosage using EI; 3 times a week using dosing pumps every morning same time.
5. Sump: 100x50x40 (approx. 150 liters); flowing bed -> lava rocks -> filter watts -> larger rocks -> pump
6. None needed
7. No
8. Yes, but i don't have the "normal" co2 degassing like most people do. I designed my sump to be 100% quiet, meaning no falling water, or gurping watter, meaning little to none co2 degassing. More info in my welcome topic which i am going to post soon.

My filterpump is a 1200 gallon / hour pump (Red Dragon) which comes from the sea water area of our hobby. Uses only 45 watts and i am guessing that it still pumps 800 gallons / hour in my tank.
 

JDowns

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JDowns;28497 said:
Now that I have much better circulation/filtration throughout the entire tank. Going back to straight EI and see if the improved circulation makes up for the need for increased phosphate dosage. I have a sneaky suspicion that a lack of PO4 was not the issue, rather inadequate circulation/filtration.

With about a week left on the stock solution, its safe to say that the added PO4 is no longer needed. GSA is non existent, as with any other pests. The improved circulation/filtration definatly was the proper fix rather then the excess PO4 IMI.

There are also marked areas of improvement in plant growth. But I'll let that go another 20 day cycle before drawing any premature conclusions.
 

JDowns

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JDowns;28942 said:
There are also marked areas of improvement in plant growth. But I'll let that go another 20 day cycle before drawing any premature conclusions.


The most notable improvements are in areas that I once thought as "normal".

I no longer have the quick decaying and loss of leaves lower on stem plants. Plant health is much impoved at the lower portions of stems.

Ludwiga Cuba grows smaller in diameter, with more off-shoots now. Could this be to less PO4? I'd have to do another 20 day run at higher levels to determine that.
 

adechazal

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Hi Gerry and "large tank" friends. I'll admit I'm a large tank lurker on this site. I've been following Gerry's posts for over a year now trying to see what he does.

My stats...
Tank: Oceanic 180 w/dual overflows
Sump: AGA model 4
Pump: Poseidon PS4 pumping about a 6 foot head
Reactor: AM1000 driven by powerhead from sump, 20lb CO2 @ about 2-3 BPS.
Lighting: 4x80watt 60" T5HO
Substrate: Eco Complete
Fertilization: Well I think I'm following EI but I'm confused about the amounts. I've been dosing 2 teaspoons N and 3/4 teaspoon PO 3x per week with 15ml of trace (TMG) 3x a week on alternating days from the macros.

Yes I have algae issues, they come and go. GDA one month, clean the next, BBA currently. I suspect my flow is woefully insufficient, the Poseidon pump doesn't push much at a 6 foot head but it is silent running which is why i picked it. So if anyone can recommend a good pump for a 180 gallon aquarium that is quiet enough for a livingroom wall aquarium please let me know. I tried the Quietone in sump pumps and they were completely unacceptable due to low frequency hum.

Aaron
 

rthomas

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Gerry, this is my current setup
- 180g tank
- 2 units of Eheim 2228 canister filter. Output is 270 gph each
- Pressurized CO2 with AM1000 reactor
- CO2 bps, hermzzz ... probably more than 5 or 6
- 2 x 150W MH (1.6 wpg)
- SunSun wavemaker. This looks almost like Koralia 4. Output is 1320 gph. No complaints. Very nice.

Now when you guys say that your tank is XYZ gallons, are you referring to the amount of water that is in the tank now OR do you mean the maximum amount of water that the tank can hold?

For example, I have to use about 9 to 10 bags of aqual soil. That is about 90 litres. My setup is Iwagumi and the volume of rocks is more or less the same volume of the AS. Total of about 200 Litres. And that is about 50g.

As such the amount of water in my tank is actually 180 less 50 = 130g.

So do I use EI for 130g tank or should I go for 180g tank ?