Large Tank Owners and Reeflo Pumps FYI

shoggoth43

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If you halve the pipe diameter from what you had you'll need four of that new diameter to equal what you had originally. So a 2" diameter pipe is equal to 4 1" diameter pipes. So if you eventually hook up all d inputs you'll actually have a bit more area than the 2" pipe. At that point the only way you could get any better flow to the pump would be to just throw the pump in the tank itself. Since it's not a submersible pump that method does come with one notable flaw. ;)

When you hook up the new siphon, if you're up for the experiment, let me know if it autostarts or if you actually have to find a way to prime it. Removing the strainer and shoving an airtube up there to suck out the air is a proven method no matter what.

Also, at some point I'll probably take you up on the offer of borrowing the PAR meter if it's still available at that time.

-
S

Gerryd;47088 said:
S,

The more I think about it, I am going to use your earlier suggestion and create a direct 1" siphon instead of the overflow.

I can create one easy enough, I think I have the parts :)

Just need to start the siphon in it once and should be good to go. With the intake about mid-water or lower, plenty of gravity to keep it going....

I would just need to adjust the flow for the additional input.

If that works, I can add 1 or 2 others which will give me 5x1" intake. That is very close to a 2" pipe.

I would then add an additional outlet as well.

I think this is even easier to try and less expensive.

I will try it this weekend (or sooner) and let you know.
 

Gerryd

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Hey,

S, Let me know about the meter, am thinking of shipping overseas....to the Netherlands. Gilles I think was asking if I would and I will :) PM me with details.

So now that I have the improvement bug, I think I see an easy(?) way to improve the OUTPUT side of my 3 parallel legs.

They currently all merge to 1" pipe via 90 elbow or T with 2x1" outlets that reduce eventually to 3/4 locline returns. The 1" is used as much as possible prior to the reduction.

This uses 2x 90 elbows and 3x T all 1". You can see some of this in the previous pictures above.

New Plan:

Merge the 3 legs as now but to 2" pipe and add a third 1" outlet so basically all three legs would flow into a 2" pipe and each leg would have a direct outlet to the tank. Two of the outlets would remain as is to the 3/4 locline, but the new one would be 1" right to the tank.

I would use 2 of these 3 way 2" 90 elbows here:

http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=3501255.22966*097Or0&product=PVC-3-ways-side-outlet-90

and 1 of the 2" 4 way T shown here:

http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=3501255.22966*xl67R8&product=PVC-4-ways-side-outlet-Ts

So I would only use 3 larger fittings instead of the current 5 smaller fittings.

The elbows would be fed by the two outside legs and the T would handle the third leg. Since each has a direct outlet on top, I would just use a 2" to 1" reducer bushing and plug my current and new 1" flex right into that.

I think this could be a big help in optimizing the output of the 3 legs in that I would reduce friction on the outlets in addition to adding a new return.

Using the fittings above and some 2" PVC will easily fit into the same space as the current 1" setup.

Only concern is that the T are not NSF rated. Need to investigate that. I still think they would work fine as the pressure is not that great and even if the distribution is not optimal, still better than current setup IMO.

This can be done easily and independently of the intake projects.

Just need to wait 7-10 days for delivery if parts are not available locally.

Appreciate any comments.
 
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shoggoth43

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Could you just use 2 of those 5 into 1 cone assemblies? Feed the 3 legs in ( 2 capped ), short length of 2" pipe, 2" cone to 5 1" out. Cap off what you don't want to use and instant merge without any flow robbing 90 degree elbows or T fittings to merge it all together. I think I posted something similar in post 49 about using a larger manifold but this lets you split off the 1" and just use those directly. Plus you'd have this wierd looking pod thing with 10 pipes going to it to mystify people....

The manifold idea would be to run the larger pipe up to the back of the tank and then just feed off the smaller fittings as reducing T fittings to get what you wanted. The 1" cone outputs would let you make changes easier I think and then you could just cut off a cap and add another feed out vs. trying to cut in a reducing T. Similar idea all around but working with the 1" pipe is probably easier all around.

-
S
 

Gerryd

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S,

Yes, I like the use of the cones better. nice idea.....

That sounds easier and neater and more flexible.....You hit the trifecta!

Just need to figure out how to set it up. The nice thing about the 3 and 4 ways is that they would be flush with the 'floor' and need no support.

Running the 1" flex into one cone and another directly connected for the outlet will need some support as I cannot see it 'laying' on the floor. Remember that the end wall is right there...

Look at the fullon pic in response #51. The right side. I can move the c02 tank for more room, but still not much.

Let me 'brain' on that for a bit as my niece says........

Oh wait, I see it:

First cone lays on floor with no need for support. Use some foam underneath and all flex for input. Use a 90 2" elbow to connect the OTHER cone so it is facing up!

Neat and clean I think...

The 'wierd' factor has an appeal lol

I appreciate the immediate responses :)
 
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Gerryd

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Hey,

Here is the new siphon I built from spare parts laying around and will install tomorrow.

I know it is pretty conspicuous :) but this is just a test. If it works well and I expect it will, I will replace it with a clear PVC setup and route them so they are less visible. I will create two of them. The larger 1.5 sections are all just pushed together so I can adjust the depth in the tank. There is sufficient glued portion that the intake end will always be under water..

I will utilize the last outlet right from the cone at the same time. That can flow the extra water I am adding with the new intake. A 1" intake (with some 1.5" parts) and a 1" outlet should balance well.

I am curious to see the effect of the new inlet w/o using the new outlet and the reverse as compared to using both. At the least I expect the new outlet to almost make up for the Koralia IV but we will see.

I am unsure how much extra flow I will get into the 3 parallel legs. As long as I am merging into only 2 outlets that then reduce to 3/4, I will have more friction and head pressure than I should. Going to 3 outlets should ease this up considerably and allow better flow through all 3 legs. Next project awaiting parts as well as now clear PVC fittings and pipe for the new intakes..............

At the very least this will improve the flow of water in the tank if not more flow through the 3 legs.

You can see I dumped both of the Koralias (II and IV) already just with the changes I made.

Here is a pic of the new uninstalled plumbing and the obligatory pic since I did a small prune and rescape.

Comments, thoughts, and suggestions are always welcome.

View attachment 1207View attachment 1208
 
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shoggoth43

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I missed this earlier. How did it go? What was the outcome?

-
S
 

Gerryd

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The outcome was I didn't do it, YET :)

Three major reasons why in no order:

1. Since the last upgrade things are really really doing well. I see no NEED to change it and want to run it this way for awhile.

2. It was a beautiful day here on Sunday and I went and played outside!

3. Once I had it measured, cut, etc all ready to assemble, I just couldn't do it. You tell me if you see a difference in these two pics and let me know if you could have left it this way for more than 5 minutes, test or not. Science be damned over aesthetics lol

View attachment 1236View attachment 1237

This FIX was what was needed. I realize now that I have been restricting my intake to 50% or less of capacity ever since I removed my sump a LONG time ago. Small wonder I always had issues with things like the mazzei and such and with different pumps and configs. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. Okay done berating myself.

I have removed BOTH koralias ( II and IV ) and am now using the intake at least as much as it was designed for....

You can see the surface agitation caused by the new outlet in the first pic.

The mazzei is really producing some nice mist. I left the c02 as it was and have reduce a tiny bit and still get the same results as before in regards to amount of pearling, growth, etc. Only 10 days, but so far so VERY GOOD on all fronts....

My next project is as follows:

1. Route the OUTLETS more towards the BOTTOM of the wiers rather than the top. You can see what I mean in the pics below. I would cut through the plastic wier walls enough for the pipe and cut the PVC pipe in the wier lower. The loc line would then be much lower in the tank and be hidden...........

2. Create 2 new 1" intakes that are DISCRETE. If I can't do it, I am happy as it is. If I add the intakes, I would than redo some of the outlets and create a new one.

This is for the future. I will really take a look at this. I know it is simpler to redrill, but want to see what I can do to improve w/o that step.

I would just buy a rimless tank and drill a 2.5" intake and a bunch (5-6) of 1" outtakes all over the place. You would never see a thing in the tank but fish, plants, and scaping materials....and lots of them blowing by. Would be like the cow scene in Twister lol

For now, relax and scape. Tom was kind enough to sell some of his driftwood and plants, so I hope to get these soon. A few new plant species and some nice manzanita pieces, and I really hope to make my tank a bit more dynamic and play with some new plants :)

Here you can see the tall return pipe inside the wier and the wall which I would have to cut through, and the outlets that would be hidden. I bet an exacto knife with 90% of the water removed will do the trick. The tall PVC pipe would then be much lower.

Slow and easy does it....

View attachment 1238View attachment 1239

As always, thanks for listening......
 
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shoggoth43

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Dumb question...

Why not stuff the new PVC intakes into the wiers as well? You already overflow into them and you have two submerged inlets in there. As long as the water levels don't drop in your two wiers ( realistically in tank sumps in this case ) you won't suck air. You'll have the two white pipes going over the top, but in the corners and the actual inlets will be hidden by the Wiers so you'll just need some black paint where they go over the top.

Also, if you didn't want to drill through the wiers to lower your intakes, you might be able to get that longer locline stuff ( or black ABS plastic ) and run that down alongside the wier and then branch your outlets off from there. No drilling needed. You might end up with a couple nasty 90 degree turns in there, but you've probably got so much pump it wouldn't matter. Plus it's not as though a leaky outlet pipe IN the tank will matter much if that were even a concern here. Depending on how you did it, you might be able to do some relatively gentle curves in the locline over the top and at the bottom AND you could run your outlets under the substrate and branch them out a bit to have them in different locations for more spread.

-
S

-
S
 

Gerryd

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S,

It is not a dumb question, rather the opposite.

Answer is I didn't think of it.

Now that I AM thinking on it, I can fit a 1" intake into both. Remember the other intake was just spare part driven and much larger than needed. 1" pvc will take little space in there and it can fit.

I can use a lot of that ugly intake as most of it was the flex, valve, and union to connect to the cone.

I guess I assumed that the overflow would need adjustment or something or the wiers would drain as now more water is being drained from them via the new 1" pipe.

I will investigate this and I like the idea very much.

As far as the outlet idea, I DID have that thought, but did not want two 90 elbows at the top of the arc. However, I will think about it again. With the additional flow provided by doubling the intake amount, I think I can easily compensate :)

I didn't think I would have to 'drill' much, just enough to pass the connecting line to the standpipe return.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts.
 

shoggoth43

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You might not need two 90 degrees at the top depending on your tolerance for a black U shaped tube going over the top of the wier. Nothing too excessive but a more curved shape vs. two 90s should get you over and back down into the tank. You could even just do 4 45 degree fittings as well whcih is still better than 2 90s from a flow perspective. At the bottom you can probably do the same since some of the curve will be under the substrate if you decide to do that. Most likely the plants would hide it anyway, so the only visual concern would be the top. Also, you could probably drop the strainer height in your wiers for the existing inputs if you wanted to to help allow room for the new inlets as well. If you do that you'll have bigger/deeper "sumps" as you'll have to get much lower water levels in there before you suck air in. The downside is that if you want to clean the strainers you may not be able to reach them anymore so that's a big maintenance headache possibility.

-
S
 

Gerryd

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S,

I appreciate your thoughts.

Even with 90 elbows it will still flow pretty well I think. I also did think about 45 and a street elbow as well :) Even if I lost 20%, I would still have a nice overall gain with each side.

I made the new intake portion that sits inside the wiers with 2 or 3 tiny sections that are just pushed together (although tightly) that can be removed/installed as needed to gain the correct depth. I clean my current intake strainers regularly, so I need to get at both inside the wiers. The strainer for each will also be easily removed. I don't think I will have to reduce the current intake standpipe although I will if needed.

I made a new prototype and it looks good. Totally hidden except for the over the wall part and I have the plumbing routing already planned. Just need to cut the flex, build, and install really.

I will position both so the strainers can be easily removed. One of my constant thoughts is: 'How am I going to get at or remove this later?'. A holdover from my auto mechanic days when I would curse the engineer who stuffed some component in some tight spot or the other and I hurt myself usually lol

I did think about 45 and loc-line at the bottom level. I anticipate some increase in flow outlet due to the additional intake flow and that it will easily compensate for any extra friction and head.

This weekend I will split the longer of the two 1" return lines from my combined 3 legs with a 1" wye and run another 1" outlet to the tank. I will intall the wye as close to the merge as possible. This should improve the flow to the 3 legs via reduced friction and head pressure ahead when the 3 merge to 2. This is literally a 10 minute project so will do before any intakes are added. Turn off all valves, cut line and drain (not much due to advanced planning), and plug the new outlet in. It is all ready to go, just need to cut the final length of flex PVC. I know the PSI on the guages on all 3 legs so will be able to know immediately of any gains by a reduction in PSI. Plus the visual of the expected increase in flow. I see another mazzei adjustment coming up. Nice thing is I now adjust the mazzei by SOUND at least to know it is working properly. Still need to know how much c02 to send it but at least you know it is working.

The new intakes can wait a bit. I love the new config and is working great. I think the new outlet split will make a nice gain and I want to guage that as well for a bit.

I have had some folks over time ask about the noise level on the blackfin 3600 pump.

Here are a few very quick Youtube links that show the plumbing and noise level from different vantage points. The hissing sound is the mazzei. I am uploading another now where I cut off the flow to the venturi and you can just hear the pump. It also unbalances the wier flows and is much noisier than the pump and venturi combined! So, that is why no vid with the doors closed and the mazzei off. I will do that later as well. Sorry about it being dark, the lights went out while filming :)

[video=youtube;GkgtE0nce3s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkgtE0nce3s[/video]

[video=youtube;NwnAnH0sNbI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwnAnH0sNbI[/video]

[video=youtube;u8aatURCH-M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8aatURCH-M[/video]

[video=youtube;i8RpqsKK7-A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8RpqsKK7-A[/video]

[video=youtube;rpj0NClb9c8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpj0NClb9c8[/video]

[video=youtube;Q19LY7bH_EI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q19LY7bH_EI[/video]

Thanks again.
 
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shoggoth43

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Do keep us posted. I think overall you're going to see a definite increase in flow once you give the pump a full unobstructed inlet path. That might be you best bang for the buck as it were but you've already got that in the pipe so to speak. I was messing around with my loud pump earlier and had the output dropped down to 5/8" and then threw on a 3/4" and a 1/2" inlet ( barbed hose connector ) and the affect on output was noticeable although you really wouldn't think if should be. Based on that it seems the inlet side has more affect on output, for my pump at least. Obviously within reason for the output restrictions. Apologies for the typos, balackberry keyboards aren't the easiest to use.

-
S

Gerryd;47499 said:
S,

I appreciate your thoughts.

Even with 90 elbows it will still flow pretty well I think. I also did think about 45 and a street elbow as well :) Even if I lost 20%, I would still have a nice overall gain with each side.

I made the new intake portion that sits inside the wiers with 2 or 3 tiny sections that are just pushed together (although tightly) that can be removed/installed as needed to gain the correct depth. I clean my current intake strainers regularly, so I need to get at both inside the wiers. The strainer for each will also be easily removed. I don't think I will have to reduce the current intake standpipe although I will if needed.

I made a new prototype and it looks good. Totally hidden except for the over the wall part and I have the plumbing routing already planned. Just need to cut the flex, build, and install really.

I will position both so the strainers can be easily removed. One of my constant thoughts is: 'How am I going to get at or remove this later?'. A holdover from my auto mechanic days when I would curse the engineer who stuffed some component in some tight spot or the other and I hurt myself usually lol

I did think about 45 and loc-line at the bottom level. I anticipate some increase in flow outlet due to the additional intake flow and that it will easily compensate for any extra friction and head.

This weekend I will split the longer of the two 1" return lines from my combined 3 legs with a 1" wye and run another 1" outlet to the tank. I will intall the wye as close to the merge as possible. This should improve the flow to the 3 legs via reduced friction and head pressure ahead when the 3 merge to 2. This is literally a 10 minute project so will do before any intakes are added. Turn off all valves, cut line and drain (not much due to advanced planning), and plug the new outlet in. It is all ready to go, just need to cut the final length of flex PVC. I know the PSI on the guages on all 3 legs so will be able to know immediately of any gains by a reduction in PSI. Plus the visual of the expected increase in flow. I see another mazzei adjustment coming up. Nice thing is I now adjust the mazzei by SOUND at least to know it is working properly. Still need to know how much c02 to send it but at least you know it is working.

The new intakes can wait a bit. I love the new config and is working great. I think the new outlet split will make a nice gain and I want to guage that as well for a bit.

*SNIP*

Thanks again.
 
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Gerryd

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Will do.

All pumps work better with more inlet flow......Jeff, the OP, mentioned that very early on in this thread.

The output is affected when the intake is increased as their is more total water to flow.

Even going from 1/2 to 3/4 will make a difference...
 

shoggoth43

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What surprised me was how changing the inlet size between less than, equal to, and greater than outlet size made such a difference. Specifically how the equal to vs. the greater than inlet to outlet size made such a difference. Since it was in the tub I didn't get a chance to mess with going from a 1" pipe vs. a 1.5" pipe to play with pipe friction and turbulence. Still good things to know since I'm looking at trying to feed my pump 1.5" effectively on the theory that I may eventually try a 1.5" inlet pump.

-
S

Gerryd;47511 said:
Will do.

All pumps work better with more inlet flow......Jeff, the OP, mentioned that very early on in this thread.

The output is affected when the intake is increased as their is more total water to flow.

Even going from 1/2 to 3/4 will make a difference...
 

Gerryd

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S,

I understand it is recommended to size pipe up one size min from the pump. So if you have a 1.5 intake.outlet on the pump, size up to 2" pipe.

Good advice and wish I had listened.

When an intake is that large, it is EXPECTING a lot of flow and even 1" pipe does not make the cut, as I have found out....

You can see via this thread what a difference plumbing size and routing makes. Plan now and make it easier on yourself. You can ALWAYS throttle extra flow, but is harder to gain more if not there in the first place.

Nice that you can play in the tub with it somewhat :)

Off to get my pvc wye for the outlet split. I can't believe I don't have one in stock lol
 
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shoggoth43

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With everything else you've bought for fittings I'm rather amazed you don't actually have two or three Y fittings lying around. :D

-
S
 

Gerryd

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shoggoth43;47560 said:
With everything else you've bought for fittings I'm rather amazed you don't actually have two or three Y fittings lying around. :D

-
S

You would think, wouldn't you lol I gave all of my extra fittings to the LFS about 6 months ago. This forced me to plan better as I couldn't Mcguyver something quick and ugly.... I know that a 1" wye was part of that booty..

Now I buy only the parts I need and just one or two extra core components. Much cheaper this way.

So, Home Depot only had a 1.5" wye (of course) so I used that and 1.5 to 1 reduced bushings. I added a union on each of the splits for future removal...

With the new line fully open, I get some additional nice flow from the new line and I was able to open up the bio leg just slightly to get the same Mazzei hissing sound. The new flow is pointed at the front substrate and HC and bounces back and mixes with all the other currents nicely. I can see c02 mist pouring out the new line along with the others, so I feel it is merging well.

Next up in the coming months:

Add the new intakes. This will be the huge win. Doubling the intake flow should give a big boost to the outlets as well.
Add the last cone outlet line to the tank. Nice addition.
Replace the current 3 leg merge with a cone distributor assembly as previously discussed. This will be big as well I think. Going to merge to 2" pipe and than to 5 1" outlets instead of the pic above with 2.25 outlets lol
Route the wier outlets to be hidden. Very nice win....

For now, relax and enjoy. I am digging the view with both Hydors gone............and anticipate the time when the 6 loc line outlets are also out of sight!

The obligatory picture:

View attachment 1256

So, overall it seems like anticipated, a nice little gain but nothing big.
 
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Gerryd

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Late Update:

After some observation and experimentation the gain appears marginal at best. With the new outlet fully open, it diverted 99.9% of the flow to that leg and not the other :) This due to the other leg reducing to 3/4 loc-line and further to 3 loc line outlets from the one and having more friction and head..

So, the new outlet is now turned on minimally so that flow goes to both sides of the split....It is good actually as it proves I am at the limit of my current outlet capacity until I increase the input.

So, I think I will add 1 new intake in the next week or two and guage that.

It also shows that the majority of the c02 mist comes from one outlet closest to the venturi (duh!) for the most part. It will be interesting to see if it gets any more flow to the legs or if the legs are at full capacity. Once they are, all the rest will be diverted for current in the tank. I like that I can add pieces as I want without a lot of effort and rework. Splitting the leg today was easy with all the valves and unions. Adding the intake should be just as easy. Pretty much plug and play now that the infrastructure to accept it exists......Hardest part really is all the bending :)

Although I will soon need a schematic under there......

I think once I merge the 3 x 1" legs into the 2" cone they will all mix better and I will get a better distribution pattern with 3 x 1" outlets from the cone instead of the current config. This will be done most likely with the addition of the second intake as I will need to use all of the available flow.

Combined with the 2 x 1" outlets that come from the main cone, I will have 5 x 1" outlets. Two for flow and the other 3 will be bio, mech, and c02 as now just better mixed insofar as the c02. The cone should better distribute c02 enriched water to all of the 3 legs.

This helps me to understand what I will need to do for my dream > 300 gal tank. Experience gained here will be invaluable later.

I hope that someone else can learn from this and not make my same mistakes........

Very happy with these latest projects and findings.

Thanks to anyone still hanging in there following. I hope at least you have laughed at me and my mistakes....
 
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shoggoth43

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Try some Sharpie markers in the meantime. Red for "dirty" water with arrows for water flow, and other colors for different things. Maybe Green for the Mazzei leg?

I've been more than happy to let you test out my ideas for me. :D

It definitely gets all of us away from what "should" work and more towards what actually DOES work. I've also rethought what I'm up to a few times now WRT/the returns. I may just give up and do a spraybar along the bottom for CO2/filtration return and be done with it and then just blast all the rest of it around with prop pumps. Pretty much what I had in mind the whole time except I'm putting the returns down under vs. from the top after looking at that Truvu 125Gallon tank thread.

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S

Gerryd;47596 said:
Late Update:

*SNIP*

Although I will soon need a schematic under there......

*SNIP*

This helps me to understand what I will need to do for my dream > 300 gal tank. Experience gained here will be invaluable later.

I hope that someone else can learn from this and not make my same mistakes........

Very happy with these latest projects and findings.

Thanks to anyone still hanging in there following. I hope at least you have laughed at me and my mistakes....
 

Gerryd

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I've been more than happy to let you test out my ideas for me.

Well it's not like I wasn't looking to improve things anyway even if you were manipulating me....

I think I can hold off on the color coding. The flow is obvious once you view the plumbing......The double cone octopus off the leg merge will be interesting lol

Just for laughs, here is a slideshow that shows some of the changes in plumbing over time....

http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg182/gerrydirish/Progression/?action=view&current=5726cc2f.pbw

Later
 
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