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Java Fern black burning spots

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by mathman, Sep 27, 2011.

  1. mathman

    mathman Guru Class Expert

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    I am currently following the EI method in my planted tank. I am doing a 50% water change every saturday. I add 3/4 GH booster (only on water changes), 1/4 of Potassium Nitrate, 1/4 tsp of Potassium, and 1/8 tsp of Potassium sulfate upon water change. I add macros on SAT-MON-WED. For Micros I am using Seachem Flourish 15Ml three times a week
    SUN-TUE-THU. I do add 5ml of iron once a week. I've always had this problems with java fern and i'm sure I can do better. Every time I go to my local fish store they have such wonder planted tank with many java ferns looking absolutely lush green. Please give me advice on what to do.

    BTW, i am using 110W of T5 light (10KK) for 8.5 hours with co2 running only when the lights are on. View attachment 2560
     
  2. tjbuege

    tjbuege Lifetime Charter Member
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    I've had Java ferns for a while. Have you ever seen them propogate new plante? It's quite facinating. These rows of black dots will appear along the length of the leaf. Then roots will form, and new plants will sprout... right from the leaves themselves! As the new baby plants grow, the parent leaf is consumed and turns brown. I have a picture somewhere, if I can figure out how to post a photo.

    It's hard to tell from your picture if this is what you are experiencing. Maybe someone with more Java fern experience can jump in.
     
  3. tjbuege

    tjbuege Lifetime Charter Member
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    Here you go. I couldn't find a better picture. If you look real carefully in the second picture, the parent leaf is in shadow, beneath and behind the cluster of new offspring. You can see the leaf is brown and spotty. I don't know if this is helpful or not.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    Your EI looks a bit odd. You don't mention your tank size. I tried to match it up with one of the EI dosing schemes.

    40-60 Gallon Aquariums
    +/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
    +/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
    +/- 3/4 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)
    +/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week

    You are dosing:
    1/4 of Potassium Nitrate SAT-MON-WED
    1/4 tsp of Potassium SAT-MON-WED
    1/8 tsp of Potassium sulfate SAT-MON-WED
    3/4 GH booster (only on water changes)
    Seachem Flourish 15Ml three times a week SUN-TUE-THU
    5ml of iron once a week
    50% weekly water change
     
  5. mathman

    mathman Guru Class Expert

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    Could you please teach me how to upload pictures as I would like to share more of my java fern. Your pictures are very clear and your plants look amazing! I envy your java fern as it looks pristine clear. Please Please help me and guide me to such success. thank you.
     
  6. tjbuege

    tjbuege Lifetime Charter Member
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    Don't get too excited about those pictures of my tank. They are from 2009, a month or two after I planted them, and BEFORE I learned about EI. I was dosing with Seachem's liquid ferts, had just started CO2, had high light. Well, the story doesn't end well. I soon lost control of the tank, probably due to lack of non-limiting ferts and lack of CO2, and poor circulation. Most of those plants are history. :eek: I still have the Swords, Java Ferns, and Crypts. I would be embarrased to show you my tanks now. But I've learned a lot, and am getting ready to start again... but I digress.

    What I was hoping to find was a clear picture of what the "parent" leaf looks like when the "baby" java ferns are growing. They pretty much consume the parent leaf and it turns dark and brown and "dries up" so to speak. It really is pretty neat to watch.

    As far as uploading attachments, I actually linked to the pictures on my website. If you try to upload, you are limited in size, 620x280 pixels I believe. But linking to an external picture is just as easy. Click the Image button. It's the fourth icon from the right, in the row of icons above the message you are typing. (I'd upload a picture, but... ... I seem to be having trouble uploading it! :eek: )

    Anyhow, you can provide a url to a photo on another site, which is what I did. Not sure why I can't upload. It was a 300x94 pixel jpg only 25kb. Maye someone else can chime in.

    If you haven't already do so, read through the sticky threads over in the http://www.barrreport.com/forumdisplay.php/67-Are-you-new-to-aquatic-plants-Start-here forum and the http://www.barrreport.com/forumdisplay.php/38-Estimative-Index forum. They're a good place to start. Again, maybe someone else can jump in and add their input.
     
  7. mathman

    mathman Guru Class Expert

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    Hey tjbuege and others,

    Thanks for your support buddy I really appreciate it. I uploaded several pictures regarding my java ferns. Please look at them carefully and leave your comments and/or suggestions. BTW, you are more than welcome to look over the other pictures. Thanks.

    IMG_1238.jpg

    IMG_1244.jpg


    My other plants are looking nice except my java fern...

    IMG_1228.jpg



    thank you.
     
    #7 mathman, Sep 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2011
  8. tjbuege

    tjbuege Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi mathman,

    Well, this definitely isn't what I recognize as propogation of new java ferns. I've never seen it before, but I bet there's someone else more experienced that might know.

    Looking back at your original post, as far as your dosing goes, what size tank do you have? ( I didn't see you mention that ). Also, you said you dose "1/4 tsp Potassium". Straight, pure, Potassium? That just looks a bit odd to me. I dose KNO3 and KH2PO4 for macros.

    You do water changes Saturday, but you also dose Macros Saturday. Assuming you dose Macros AFTER the water change?

    I don't have experience dosing with Flourish (I use CSM+B and recently started adding a bit of Fe Gluconate), so I can't speak to that aspect.

    I've seen mention that it maybe better to dose iron more often than once a week. Something about it not staying available to plants very long. I could be remembering incorrectly, however.

    Now... I hardly consider myself an expert, so I HOPE if I'm making observations that are incorrect, that someone else will speak up. :D

    I'm sure this will get figured out.

    P.S. If you want your pictures to show up in your post as pictures instead of links, wrap them in a pair of tags putting the url do your picture between them.
     
  9. mathman

    mathman Guru Class Expert

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    My tank is somewhere between 55-60 gallons. I have 110 W of T5 light with two bulbs each 10KK. The lights remains on for 8.5 hrs each day. Every saturday morning I do a 50% water change and THEN I add my macros and Gh booster which consist of 1/4 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 1/4 tsp K2SO4 (potassium sulfate) and 3/4 tsp of GH booster. The macros are added 3x a week SAT-MON-WED and the micros are 15ml of Seachem flourish 3x a week SUN-TUES-THURS. I also add sachem Iron 5-10 ml a week.

    The reason why my dosing is as stated and not as the suggested by the EI method is due in part to my already close to the "suggested levels" at the end of the week ...well, to be honest with you I don't know how to measure the concentration of iron in my tank. but all the other compounds are within range.

    EI target ranges
    CO2 range 25-35 ppm
    NO3 range 10-30 ppm
    K+ range 10-30 ppm
    PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
    Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
    GH range 1-2 degrees "extra" 17-40 ppm or higher


    Thanks for the hint on the pictures. I learned something from you already and I thank you.
     
    #9 mathman, Sep 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2011
  10. Matsyendra

    Matsyendra Junior Poster

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    I reckon it couldn't hurt to dose as suggested by EI, you may go over the "suggested levels" but it won't cause any problems and then you can be certain that it is not a lack of nutrients causing your issues. Then you can focus on things like lighting levels, CO2 and water circulation... I have 45 gallons and I am dosing more than you with no issues, to fish or shrimp or snails in my tank.

    You do not need to dose K2SO4 if you are dosing KNO3.
     
    #10 Matsyendra, Sep 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2011
  11. tjbuege

    tjbuege Lifetime Charter Member
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    Ok, tank size was very useful information. By my calculations, you are only dosing about 12 ppm NO3 a week. That's a bit on the low side. Look at this thread: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2819-EI-light-for-those-less-techy-folks:

    Tom suggests 1/2 tsp of KNO3 3x week. You said you are only dosing 1/4 tsp. Also, I figure you are dosing about 6 ppm each week of PO4, higher than the suggested 1-2 ppm. Not sure you need the K2SO4 (I could be wrong). Whether either of those are affecting the Java Fern, I don't know. I'm also not sure about the micros or Fe. Someone else will have to address that.

    Edit: Ok, Matsyendra just confirmed my thoughts that you don't need the K2SO4.
     
  12. Matsyendra

    Matsyendra Junior Poster

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    Also, my PO4 is around 3 ppm, maybe a little higher, and no issues from that either - certainly no algae as a result as many people will try to get you to believe. From what I understand of what Tom has written before, a lack of phosphate can cause issues. The moment you begin to add PO4 you also need to make sure you adding enough CO2. As with increased PO4 the plants demand more CO2 :D

    It really is a balancing act, if one part is out... you get issues.

    Do not underestimate water circulation - it is very important. I had one side of my tank at 20ppm NO3 and the other at 5ppm, increased flow solved that issue.
     
  13. mathman

    mathman Guru Class Expert

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    Thank you for the fast response. I will change my macro and micro regime to the following:

    1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week

    1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week

    3/4 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)

    15ml Trace Elements 3x a week
    50% weekly water change

    If I drop K2SO4 out of the equation will I be getting enough potassium to keep my plants nice and green? When should I add seachem's iron? How many ml and how many times per week? Do I added the same day I add macros or micros? Thanks

    If you notice the other plants are doing fine but im willing to try this tobsee if my java fern improves.
     
  14. mathman

    mathman Guru Class Expert

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    Btw, please keep the suggestions coming...I am enjoying this conversation and I will keep you updated with results ( sadly, this will take weeks to months)
     
  15. Matsyendra

    Matsyendra Junior Poster

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    You should be getting enough potassium from the potassium nitrate and mono potassium phosphate. I don't add iron too often. I also use Seachem for micros, if I do dose extra iron, I add it on micro day. Seachem comprehensive supplement does contain iron as well.

    Some people dose iron every day, I am not sure if you need that much. Perhaps it depends on your substrate. I will let someone else elaborate on that.

    I really do hope your Java fern improves.
     
  16. Matsyendra

    Matsyendra Junior Poster

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    Something odd happened. Page stalled, double post.
     
    #16 Matsyendra, Sep 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2011
  17. mathman

    mathman Guru Class Expert

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    Sadly when I started my tank I purchased regular gravel. Thus, i am not using any special planting substrate. I have used iron tablets which I've been told that it has better results than liquid iron since plants take in more from their roots.
     
  18. RukoTheWonderDog

    RukoTheWonderDog Junior Poster

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    The broad leaf java ferns in my old Lake Tanganyika tank used to propagate new leafs in this way. I never saw this with Windelov or narrow leaf (not needleleaf) varieties.
     
  19. tjbuege

    tjbuege Lifetime Charter Member
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  20. mathman

    mathman Guru Class Expert

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    Hey Tjbuege,

    Good fine! I read his post and as I finished reading it I cranked up my CO2 a tad higher...I will be using a co2 drop checker to make sure i have enough co2...I will also install a hydro pump to increase water movement. I thank you and everyone else for the help and I will keep all of you posted with b4 and after pictures regarding my java ferns.
     
    #20 mathman, Sep 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2011
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