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"Intelligent falling..."

Discussion in 'Off Topic and Chat' started by Tom Barr, Aug 19, 2005.

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  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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  2. Laith

    Laith Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    OMG :D :eek:

    This type of thing is funny... and scary as hell at the same time.
     
  3. brad

    brad Prolific Poster

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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    Not much I can do but shake my head! :rolleyes:
     
  4. KLB

    KLB Junior Poster

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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    I put this about the same level as the movement in Nor Cal several years back to push Ebonics through the school system as a viable language or alternative to... English...


    "We just want the best possible education for Kansas' kids," Burdett said.

    Yeah, I am sure that is his sole agenda with trying to refute Newton...


    Ken
     
  5. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    God needs to HELP US. We are on a rapid march back to the Stone Age. Those poor kids.
     
  6. Jay

    Jay Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    How do I explain this to my bottom feeders, my god it's a bottom feeding moral conundrum.
     
  7. Urkevitz

    Urkevitz Junior Poster

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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    My physics teacher in college explained gravity in similar terms.
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    Ya'll know The Onion, America's finest news source is all satire?

    I hope so:)

    The Intelligent Design idea that some leader's in Washington are pandering as "Creationism" with some of the text removed is the same logic in it's argument with Evolution and support as this Falling design gravity theory.

    The message sent to kids:

    It's okay to suggest speculation and myths as alternatives to science............

    I mention this not because I am a Biologist today, but rather, I am planted tank hobbyist that has ran into this same type of BS crap myths in this hobby for a long time.

    Anyone doubting Evolution?
    Want to see Evolution?
    Easy.
    Pesticide resistence in:

    Plants/weeds
    Insects
    Bacteria
    Fungi
    Rats
    Diseases that kill us

    Every major group of life forms on the planet.
    I can and have tested stuff like this.
    You do not need to wait 20 millions years or even a 100.
    There is no reasonable way I can doubt natural selection and address aquatic weeds and herbicide treatment. It took about 20-30 years for Hydrilla to start resisting herbicides.

    Every single pest we try to control eventually beats us and we have to come up with a new chemical to kill it. It's an arms race to beat the other side.

    Today we convict someone of life in prison based on DNA evidence and use DNA to determine the parents in parternity suits, but cannot take the exact same DNA method and go back further to determine ancestory?

    We have solved many murders and crime investigations using these same methods for the benefit of victims and those wrongly accused. If DNA and all the other evidence is wrong and "just a theory", why is it used as a basis for law and evidence with respect to crime?

    I think that is a much more pressing matter and one that cannot be reconciled with Intelligent design. Of course if Intelligent design where something other than Creationism being dressed up, they would be attacking DNA evidence since that involved the law, life and death issues as well as many medical and agricultural issues.

    But I guess the threat to the long held belief in the ancient Hebrew myth of Creation is too much to bear, the Cathloic church had a similar problem when Galieo came along. There are a few Flat Earth folks running around, to each their own.

    I believed PO4 was bad, so did many, but we figured out it was not.
    When new evidence comes along, the old myths are left behind.

    Creationism should be taught, but in a Religious studies class. Evolution should be taught also, as science. Evolution is not a religion and therefore has no place being taught in Religious studies.

    BTW, I am deep spiritual and definitely believe in a higher power, but I am interested in what the power created here, Evolution and Physics are far more complex and deserving of the grandeur of the higher power than the 7 day myth.

    Now why would an Intelligent Designer add a larger non functional organ, the appendix, inside me like our herbivorous ancenstors had (that was functional) and our closer relatives that also have them?

    Are the designers tricksters?

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    I was raised Christian and went to bible school, (my Grandfather was a minister at a large Protesant Church in TN for 40 some odd years), as did most folks where I grew up. I learned about creationism and was taught that in an appropriate setting as a child. I also read ancient greek mythology(but clearly don't believe that story either, but many Greeks did back then).

    In school I learned about science.
    My father taught evolution and no one in our famiy has ever had issues with the bible and evolution, rather, quite the opposite.

    A friend offer this response which is fairly typical of the responses:

    "I having nothing against ID - I was taught it in Sunday School and church while growing up and while I did see the opposing gap in beliefs as I became an older teenager, I didn't fret about it. But Biology always made more sense and I felt, as others do that proponents of ID are taking things way too literally, the Bible for instance, which is what ID is derived from. But men of those Biblical times were not always well-educated nor did they realize that the earth had existed for millions of years - if you believe in Biology. They didn't know about the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal people, nor dinosaurs, saber-toothed tigers, mastodons, or trees thousands of years old. We have the fossils to prove these animals existed way more than 10,000 years ago. So in my mind, I settle the discrepancy by believing that God was behind the scenes in evolution yet not taking an direct and active part in it once it got started. Strange that I arrived at this in my own little weird mind because it's quite similar to what deists believe. To explain what we now call ID (a rather silly, pompous name that irritates me), I just chalk it up to the lack of education and knowledge by those who wrote the different parts of the Bible and their idea that the world only started a relatively short period of time before they existed.

    But my feelings on teaching ID in school is that it doesn't belong there. School is for the practical side of learning and frankly, while we technically call evolution a "theory", much of it can be proven. ID belongs in church and it should be taught in church, period. Perhaps what we need is a grassroots movement to get evolution taught in Sunday School and church if they insist on teaching ID in schools. Fair is fair, right? In elementary school, I attended a Catholic school (no, I'm not Catholic), the old-fashioned kind with nuns in black habits and huge crosses around their necks for two years but as a Protestant, I wasn't required to participate in the religion classes that were mandated for the Catholic students. However, one could hardly avoid hearing the teacher (always a nun...or rather, Sister) since we had to remain in class. While Biology has come a loooong way since the late '50's when I attended this school (and the only one I ever did that taught religion....but it was a private Catholic school...duh) but we also studied "Science". There was no conflict...religion was religion and science was science, although a lot less detailed than college Biology, for instance. The classes were not mixed together except for the Sisters to teach that God was behind both science and religion. I was just a kid, of course, but that made perfect sense to me and I wasn't concerned with discrepancies....I really didn't see any then anyway.

    The problem nowadays as I see it is that the Moral Majority is blowing this issue way out of proportion by demanding equal time in a setting that is not religious-based...secular public schools which are supported by our tax dollars. Parents are free to put their children in religious schools if they choose to or if they are that concerned about religious training but not all religions believe in the Bible nor in the Christian ID either. Schools are made up of children of many different faiths, yet the Moral Majority is once again projecting their personal beliefs, or wanting to, on everyone while objecting to the teaching of evolution which is a lot more provable than the Bible. Science does have many artifacts backing up many facets of evolution but the Bible has just a few, depending on what each person finds believable. And if one questions a passage in the Bible, the stock answer is "we don't question God...we just believe". Well, that's baloney and it's evasive too. I could give that same answer as to why I might believe in the Great CareBear On A Cloud but it's an empty sentence...it means nothing at all.

    My children are adults now so I don't worry about their schooling but if they were in school and ID was or was going to be taught as a course, I would demand they be released from the class to perhaps go to study hall or the library to spend that time period. I would go so far as to get an attorney to help me if it came to that too. If I want my children to have religious training, I would send them to church/SundaySchool. It's not like there aren't any options here so why the big desire to put ID in school? Again, let's demand that evolution be taught in church if the Religious Right want ID to be taught in secular schools. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

    Bonnie"

    Just one person's opinion............she about 80 years old....... :gw
    And she grows plants great!

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  10. AV8TOR

    AV8TOR Junior Poster

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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    I am glad you added this as The Onion is all playing off high emotion topics.
     
  11. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    It is disappointing to see that so many people accepted that bit of satire as being the truth. Where is that critical thinking that that education is supposed to engender? Tom was good to point out (what should have been) the obvious.

    Clearly evolution is an established fact of science. Living things do change over time, there is little argument against that, in my opinion. Unfortunately "Creative Design" has become a tool that is used by both the political left and the political right and by the religious and those who are anti-religion, to lash each other, something that goes beyond well beyond the supposed science debate.

    Bill
     
  12. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    You are so right. I swallowed that story hook, line and sinker. It was my daughter that pointed out that "The Onion" was pure satire. That goes to show you that nowadays, there is little that will shock anybody. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Greg Watson

    Greg Watson Administrator
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    The sad thing is that there isn't a public outgrage about the morality of the type of person who would actually write an article like this and actually think that is was "satire" ...

    For a basic understanding of why our society has degraded into what we now are, all you have to do is look to what type of person wrote this article ...

    And sadly ... here we are passing links like this around and having fun with them, without thinking about what the underlying "agenda" is of those that would create such an article ...

    Their "Media Kit" proudly boasts a quote from Al Gore who allegedly said "This Publication is Tastless and Destructive to our Shared Values" ... that should be enough for anyone (regardless of political persuasion) to comprehend how truly destructive authors such as these really are ...

    It saddens me that we as a society fail to recognize the lack of integrity, ethics, and morality of authors such as these and then even go so far as to naively pass them on ...

    Greg
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    Any news magazine named after a plant cannot be all bad:) :D

    They had a better one about Cyanobacteria and the stock market.
    "They did not create the atmoshpere, they just made it breathable."

    I have it printed out, 100% a hoot.

    I treat the hobby amongst friends very much like an Evangelical Religious Revial. Some even pray for their tanks to grow by the will of Plant God.

    Some aquascapes are much to beautiful to be created by their owners. A "higher intelligence", an "intelligent aquascaper" did that design, not some feeble minded human....................

    Brother Steve, after years of aimless wanderings in the algae infested western desert, happened upon a tank at the base of Mt Tam. There, heth saw the burning Riccia bush, ablazen with pearls of fire and O2...........

    Regards,

    Tom Barr
     
  15. Clone

    Clone Junior Poster

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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    You are kidding right? Moral outrage? The Onion has been around since the internet boom of the early 1990's and has made fun of everynews story and personality since. Maybe I'm missing something but the article reads like satire to me.

    Please explain the type of person the author(s) is/are. In my opinion the type of person who wrote this is the type of person who has a view contray to yours and that does not make him/her responsible for societies ills.

    What is more sad is that the integrity, ethics, and morality of those pushing ID as a valid scientific theory with out shred of undistorted evidence doesn't bother you at all. Intelligent Design is not new, it's the same discredited argument that was thrown out by Christian scientist infavor of evolution by natural selection almost 150 years ago.

    BTW I passed it on to a number of friends :)
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    If it's funny, I don't care how politically incorrect it is.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. Greg Watson

    Greg Watson Administrator
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    Re: "Intelligent falling..."

    That is what is missing here ...

    At some point in time men and women of integrity have to take a stand about what is right and what is wrong ... it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that ...

    Those who have an agenda to the contrary often will choose to hide behind a politically correct opinion that says that we should respect opinions that "are contrary" rather than to call something that is wrong exactly what it is - wrong ...

    I would prefer to be honest and say that something that is wrong rather than to try to manipulate words to say that "wrong" is simply contrary to "right" ...

    If a child takes a piece of candy from a store and does not pay for it, then to me that is stealing ... we don't have to make it any more complicted than that ...

    Now when asked why he took the candy the child says "because I wanted it" - then I guess that you can say he has a "contrary opinion" ... its not hard to see the folly behind that kind of an argument ...

    Those that wish to degrade and debase our society simply don't like it when someone says something that is wrong is wrong ... they want to try to manipulate the words into something that is politically correct and try to call it "contrary" ...

    ... I'm just not stupid enough to fall for that kind of a trap ... but seriously, I think it is sad that many have ...

    Nor will I be baited into such a false "discussion" ... but I will have the integrity and the ethics to not fall prey to those that would seek to play such a game ...

    Greg
     
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