Improving water quality? ideas?

[ShadowMac]

I have been struggling to keep my electric blue rams alive and have been looking at ways to improve water quality. I came across a filter media Boyd's Chemi pure which is supposed to improve water quality. Is anyone familiar with this product? Does anyone know if it will remove my fertilizers?

Any other suggestions on improving water quality (without switching to RO) would be appreciated. I have been considering adding API's Blackwater extract for south american cichlids as well. Anyone have opinions on that? Will it have negative consequences for fish who are not of south american origin?

 

[Hallen]

What is is your current PH, KH, GH? I take it there is no No2 or NH3/4.

Most of the time there needs to be something seriously wrong with the water quality will it be the cause of death, especially if they are offspring of captive fish. Also keep in mind that this variant of ramirezi is bred by man and not natural, mostly these variants are bred for color or long fins etc in many cases this doesnt make a healthier fish.

Just took a look at your tank, must say it looks great! - While looking I noticed you are using two extra powerheads, are the fish by any chance fighting the current? I killed a barb or two by accident when I increased the current and didnt have enough time to look at the tank for a day.

 

[Tug]

My understanding is products like Boyd's Chemi pure remove DOC, but I'm not sure about fertilizer.

What makes you think your water quality is off? Where did you get your fish and how long have you had them?

And speaking of Blackwater extract, this is something I thought was interesting - Indian almond leaves. http://www.indianalmondleaves.com/aquariums.php

 

[ShadowMac]

I purchased my fish from arizona aquatic gardens. 2 didn't make it a week 2 more died in the second week. The last one is doing well looks very good, but so did a couple others before suddenly going downhill. I don't think my water is bad just looking to see if there are ways to have some success with these fish. All other fish are doing well.

 

[Tug]

I found this link and hope it helps. Good luck.
http://www.ventralfins.com/freshwater_ebluerams_general.html

Maybe try feeding them on live food if you can. I know they well eat just about anything, but supplementing a diet with live food is always a good idea. I would think adding CO2 would keep your pH at acceptable levels (5.8-6.8). Hallen has a point too. It could be the fish and not your water.

 

[Biollante]

AZ Aquatic Gardens---Good

Hi,

Products such as Chemi Pure, activated charcoal and Purigen remove organic material, leaving our “salts” alone. The problem is you may wish tannins (black water) in your tank.

I have never used Indian almond leaves but I have and do use Oak and Maple leaves and maybe a few others. I like the use of leaves.

As for “black-water extracts,” peat tea with maybe a little of Grandma’s molasses dribbled in will do just fine. :gw

Electric Blue Rams, Papiliochromis ramirezi are difficult fish to keep.

Really good water conditions, well oxygenated, so forth.

Papiliochromis ramirezi need open swimming space with plenty of “caves” and hiding places. If possible three or four densely planted areas as well. Flat stones placed around the tank if you want them to breed. To breed after they have matured and acclimated a little peat and elevate the temperatures a bit maybe 26-27 C (79-82 F).

{Disclaimer: pH is controversial here}

In my experience a pH under 7.0 is important, I like under 6.0, anything stable from 5.2 to 7.0 should work.

{Here is where some Yump or Yumpettes can jump in claiming to have raised Papiliochromis ramirezi for the last 30 years in pH 12.8-13.5.}

In my experience Papiliochromis ramirezi like general hardness in the 4-6dGH range, I like 5dGH.

In my experience Papiliochromis ramirezi like alkalinity under 4dKH, I like 2dKH, many strive for close to 0dKH; I think that makes the water unstable.

{Here is where the aforementioned Yump or Yumpette can jump in claiming to have raised Papiliochromis ramirezi for the last 30 years in working cement trucks.}

Biollante

 

[ShadowMac]

Tug,

Thank you for the link. i will have to test my water and maybe do some things to hit specific ranges of kH and GH. I know my tap is rather high when i tested it.

I have been feeding blood worms, brine shrimp and pellet food at different times. If i can get them to stay alive i will look at keeping my own brine shrimp so I can feed them live food not frozen food.

Biollante,

as always thank you for your knowledgeable response. I'm going to add some caves to the tank using some clay pots among the plants, should still look nice and provide a better environment for the rams. I'm going to try one more group after getting water parameters ideal.

Two questions regarding your response. My tap water starts out at a pH above 7 and when injected with CO2 I end up with around 6.4 throughout most of the day. CO2 turns off at night so pH rises again and drops again during the day. I have a pH controller and could leave CO2 on all the time if needed. Could this swing from day and night be causing undue stress? i have been using the controller as a safety net to prevent me from gassing my fish. I found the pH level where fish begin to be under CO2 stress and keep it just above that so I know I'm injecting enough CO2.

Second, hallen brought up the fact that i am running two koralia 1 pumps for improved flow. the current doesn't appear too strong to me, but could it be exhausting the fish? they do appear to be exhausted when gasping. I'm not sure if that is from the rapid breathing or the exhaustion comes first from the current. there are areas of slow current and they could rest there if tired. anyways, do you think that could be an issue?

looks like i will be adding a blackwater extract or some source of peat and tannins and not using the chemipure

a cement truck huh...hmm...i may try that next!

 

[Biollante]

Just Between Us Girls, Eh...

Hi,

As Hallen and Tug say, the problem could be the fish, based on your description of the fish and the source of the fish, I am going to say it is likely water parameters; these are difficult, sensitive fish. :gw

For whatever reasons pH swings within 1.0-degree from CO2 injection seem to have little effect on the critters, whereas some of the more sensitive critters can be harmed by a 0.2-degree pH shift via salts. I do not pretend to understand it.

I would advise that your base pH be below 7.0, I would also anticipate roughly a full degree drop because of CO2 injection. The idea is to keep the base (pre CO2) pH level acidic and stable.

Alkalinity is, I think the major player many folks keeping Papiliochromis spp. strive for near zero (as in, nada, nothing, zip-zero, uh-uh, 0.0) dKH. Being the scared of pH crashes and such-like kind of evil plant monster am not comfortable with that; I maintain a little under 2dKH, though I have never seen any non-breeding problems up to 4dKH.
I concede that breeding and certain disease resistance does appear to be better at lower alkalinity than I use. (Jonny and Philosophos would be amazed at such a concession on my part, so let us keep this between us. )

General hardness does not seem to be critical, I recommend keeping it in the 4-6 range, but I doubt upward of 8 or even 9dGH would be harmful.

I do not think that excessive current is a problem with these guys as long as they are healthy in fact I rather think they enjoy a good current.

I cannot overstate the importance of caves and hiding places, get something in now!

They are not shy; they certainly know who feeds them and are greedy little buggers. They get along well with other mild mannered critters, most un-cichlid like.

Live food is a very good idea, especially when breeding.

Biollante

 

[ShadowMac]

Here are a few things I am now planning on implementing in order to improve conditions specifically to help these EBR's:

adding a blackwater extract (not sure if this would drop my starting pH)

I need to reduce my kH. last time i tested my tap it was 5 dkH. When I had tested another tank some time ago it was higher than that 8 dkH, so I'm sure this tank is around a similar range. I will test to make sure. how do i go about reducing that?

base pH needs to be dropped slightly. I do have a discus buffer and am considering using that to reduce my tap's pH. i have run across seachems south american cichlid salt as well and am thinking of that. Would using pH buffers be a good idea?

asap adding more cave like structures within the aquarium probably using clay pots (going to get them today).

 

[Gerryd]

Hi,

Adding blackwater extract will lower your ph for sure and is one of it's objectives I think Or did you mean your starting TAP ph?

I will respond more later on this, but I have found this forum to be knowledgeable.

http://www.forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=9749

Maybe more searches on this site? I am pretty sure I am a member and will check later.

That being said, I have had mixed results with almost ALL fish I have ever purchased..regardless of species or origin. Better percentages from hobbyists as the care is far superior in general.

Remember that the care they receive and the water quality they are kept in, is constantly trending downwards...

By the time they get to you, they are very crowded and stressed and have had to acclimate to many different water parameters....not easy for them to do so continuously and also not really eating either...

 

[ShadowMac]

today i rearranged some things to add caves...added some clay pots and placed a rock to create a cave. I don't like the clay pots and may do a major rearrange with rocks to add caves only using my rocks, but for now it will do and keeping the fish alive comes first.

I added blackwater extract and seachem acid buffer which is supposed to decrease kH and pH. Upon adding the recommended dose my pH dropped from 6.4 to 6.1. The shrimp were the only ones that showed they were annoyed by the change but quickly returned to their usual behavior. I will test and update with my results soon.

I hope these changes result in success with these electric blue rams. I plan on watching how my remaining EBR fairs and if he does well adding a final group.

 

[Biollante]

Slowly On The pH Change

Hi,

{Warning pH is a sensitive issue here.}

My recommendation (I believe independently supportable) is to move pH (up or down) with salts by no more than 0.2 degrees every six or so hours, never more than 0.6 degrees in any 24 hour period.

Watch your critters carefully and at any sign of distress, stop and give it a day and slow down the rate of change.

Remember to match pH at water change.

Biollante

 

[ShadowMac]

Would it be okay to add buffer at water change, about half of what I used this time? I use a hose so premixing in another container would be difficult. How do others do it? pH is currently holding steady at 6.6

 

[Biollante]

Dump It In...

Hi,

There are a couple of methods for introducing additives to correct water parameters, the most direct is calculate (or by experimentation) how much buffer is required to bring the tank to the required water parameters and add as you are adding the water.

This usually works, though with sensitive critters it may be necessary to use a stock solution and an eductor or injection pump. :gw

Biollante

 

[ShadowMac]

Just a couple thoughts on some things you had mentioned Biollante.

A pH change via salts being different than pH via CO2 makes since. Fish are osmoregulators between themselves and the environment and often times animal cells use salt gradients or even ion driven pumps, Na, Ca, and K being some that come to mind, to exchange things through cell membranes. Salts may affect acidity in a different way impacting those gradients and altering exchange of fluids or ions whereas dissolved CO2 can form carboxylic acid which would primarily only effect H+ ions. (this is pretty much me thinking out loud so these conjectures very well could be incorrect)

I have had a "wild type" german blue ram in another tank without the difficulties i've experienced with the electric blue variety. Since this color morph is likely a line breed it has probably reduced genetic variation making it a little more fragile than the wild type. Which would explain greater difficulty adapting to various environments and requiring more specific water conditions to thrive as well as a general intolerance to stress when compared to the wild type. I wonder if they EBRs will breed with GBRs. have red that the line breeds true and offspring of EBRs are 100% electric blue. Could introducing a wild type on occasion improve viability? change color makeup all together or result in a percentage expressed as EBR, another as GBR, and perhaps another slightly different. It would all depend on how color is inherited and i'm sure its not that simple and I don't know much about breeding fish, but do know a bit about genetics and biology. It may be interesting to experiment with and if I get good at taking care of these critters I may do just that.