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I'm in Hot Water!!

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by inkslinger, Oct 14, 2010.

  1. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    I just got done redoing my system and High Pressure Pump is keeping my tank at a steady 88.5F -90.0F
    Blue Line 55 HD 1100gph pump 1 inch pvc line system split 2 leg
    1. Mazzie w/by-pass
    2. Nu-Clear filters 533, 547
    return back to one than back to 2 returns??
    No heater added!!!
     
  2. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    You may need to look into a cooling tower. You've certainly got a large enough pump to run it. :)

    -
    S
     
  3. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Ink,

    Two main issues:

    1. You are creating a bottleneck if joining both legs to a SINGLE line and then splitting back to TWO. Simply add an output leg that goes from EACH LEG to the tank to allow more OUTPUT flow and eliminate the join/split and send each leg back to the tank. You should see the PSI drop on the NC. I made that SAME mistake and it makes a difference....

    You will lose the mixing of the c02 flow, but that is killing you right now.....point the c02 outlet into a powerhead or something to help distribute it...

    What PSI is it now? 3-6 is fine...

    2. I found my Pan world also ran hotter than normal. Close to 3-4 degrees F.

    Directing a fan across the surface helps...

    Open up that output flow !!!

    Please note it may not compensate for ALL the increase in temps.

    BTW, Nice plumbing job but you have lots of 90 elbows which really can add up as friction... Can you use more flex and reduce the # of angles?

    Also that Y split on the outlet will not work 50/50 like you think. Use a wye fitting if you must as they split flow much more evenly....

    I have parallel 3 legs and use only a few 45 which have a gentler arc. they also take a bit more length but is worth it IMO.
    Anything to reduce angles and overall pipe length will add up as improvements.

    I have found that placing ball valves AFTER the nu-clear is an excellent way to set the PSI of 4-6..
     
    #3 Gerryd, Oct 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2010
  4. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    So remove the Bottle Neck After the filter and Mazzie and have 2 separate returns and remove some elbow's . Will it's going to be like this for at lest 3-4 month's as of Thursday next week I'm going for another operation on my right ankle again and have to be off my leg again so plenty of time to come up with something . My Black Skirt Tetras seems not to mind the heat for now.
     
  5. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    Is Two Little Fish the only company that makes Ball Valve with Hose Barb's??
     
  6. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    Would Check Vales be ok to use after the filter and mazzie instead of a ball valve or use both??

    :gw
     
  7. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Not sure but that is what Big als sells as well as my LFS....
     
  8. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Check valve is not needed IMO for a closed loop. Just shut the ball valve off to stop any flow during maintenance. A check valve will simply prevent BACK filling, which is not a concern for your setup.

    Won't hurt, but not sure they are required.

    Ball valves work for me.
     
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    What Gerry Says... Of Course.

    Hi,

    Thanks to a little prodding, someone helped me remember... :eek:

    No disagreement with anything Gerry says, that would be nothing but foolish... :gw

    I am assuming this is the same pump referenced here http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6462-Blue-Line-55-HD-Pump-Manual.

    As far as I can tell even without Gerry's suggestion you are not using 10 feet of head. The BL 55 HD is rated for 28 feet of head.

    I have been running mine for a couple of years at 12-13 or so feet of head loss and the pump is not running hot, also I am drawing something like 150-155 watts. Measured water flow is better than 450 gallons per hour. I am try to figure a good method of measuring added heat, it appears to be less than 1.5 C, but I have little confidence in that figure.

    The pump itself seems warm to the touch, certainly not hot. I have a fan set up to move air that is rarely above 85 F (29 C) through the area.

    I say all of this to say I think there is a problem with your pump, however it came about. It might be worth having a pump person take a look. :)

    Biollante
     
  10. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    please excuse the typos - hand surgery...

    how are you feeding the pump? i recall Gerry made some changes to the inlet side that dramatically lowered temps, i think. any 90 degree bends on the inlet? 1", 1.25"? any chance of upping it to 1.5 -2" without any sharp bends on the inlet?

    -
    S
     
  11. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    Yep that is the same pump, I was able to pop the fan off and replace it with a new one after I clean it .
    I don't think is the pump? It's nice and silent for a big pump I think!
    It is warm to the touch {not burning hot} and I do have a spare fan on it also , I believe it's the bottle neck buy having 2 leg's coming in threw 1 Wye and going out threw another Wye to 2 returns. {>--
     
    #11 inkslinger, Oct 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2010
  12. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hub Puller?

    Hi,

    Was it the hub puller that did the trick? :)

    I have to say I have never had so quiet a pump. :cool:

    You do have a lot of angles and the the extra return will help I am sure.

    I still do not see the pressure, for a pressure rated pump should create that kind heat. Especially since the pump itself does not seem to be overheating.

    Still if you wish to adjust flow rate you need to adjust pressure by teeing off between the outlet and the flow valve, to a valve to adjust pressure, teeing into the return pipe.

    Biollante
     
  13. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    As I'm planning on changing my system due to heat that it's creating , I'm starting with in intake i'm switching to a hose so to bypass my corner stand and add a 1 inch Barbed Aquatic Ball Valve. My first question is should I add a Y before my pump? right now if you look at the pic I have , it's after the pump now , My plan was to change my intake and go to the pump .
     
  14. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Ink,

    Sorry, but I do not understand what changes you are making or what your questions are...

    Can you please try again to put it another way? Or point out what I am missing?

    Y are not that efficient. You want to have a larger intake (if possible) than the pump size inlet. This is to flow MORE water TO the pump.

    On the outlet side use a wye fitting or cone distributor.

    The intake is the reason I added two extra 1" intakes to my pump. I have 4x1" intakes feeding into 2" PVC connected right to the pump.

    If I had a 3" INTAKE but reduced to 2" that would flow even more water. More input = more output generally speaking.
     
  15. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    1. My intake has a few elbows to the pump that I can get rid of a few
    2. After the pump I have is a union and the Wye , I have not fig. that out yet ?
    3. After my Mazzie leg and the Nc-Clear filters leg they merge to a Wye-Ball Valve then back to a Wye to 2 returns

    My changes I want to do is the intake an use a hose with a hose barb ball valve to the pump to get rid of some elbows , The separate to legs from the Mazzie and Filters to have there own returns . Hope this will cut my temp in my tank from 90F to a less 85-86F or even less if I can in a 110g tank 60x18x24.

    :gw

    DSC_0057.JPG

    DSC_0054.JPG

    DSC_0055.JPG
     
  16. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    Will I finely got done redoing my line system all I left wast the elbow with the Wye after the pump. I switch over my plumbing over to braided hose and separated the bottle neck I had after the filters and mazzie and 2.5 hours later a steady 82.2F !!!!!!!!!! I drop 8F by separating the bottle neck.

    I will be glad when I wake up in the morning an it stays at 82F , It's a lot better then 90F
    I did change my 1x6 intake to 1x3 intake an only one 1" braided hose with a barb ball valve to the pump.
     
  17. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Ink

    What size tank are you running and is it an open top or covered? Also what is your ambient room temp?

    I'll be interested as well in your results. I've got a Velocity T4 coming to drive a NC522. Since my bulkheads are 1.5" I'm keeping the input at that diameter until I get aligned with the pump inlet axis then convert to 1" using flex pvc for vibration isolation. The one turn I'll need to do that will be using long turn rather than normal elbows. After the pump I'm staying with 1" thru the NC all the way to the 1.5" return area.

    I don't yet have a CO2 injection plan and from the sounds of it don't need to worry too much about a heater either.

    Once I'm back in the tank I'll probably put some sort of 1.5" tee before going to a pair of 3/4" loclines to avoid a pressure point there.

    Your experience has me worried...

    Good luck to both of us!

    Jim
     
    #17 Jim Miller, Dec 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2010
  18. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    A bad iwaki pump:

    http://www.shopmania.com/shopping~online-aquarium-supplies~buy-iwaki-md-30rzt-220-volt-japanese-high-pressure-rated-pump~p-3795190.html

    A good one:

    http://www.askcost.com/Iwaki-WMD40RLT-American-motor-pressure-rated-pump-p_info-61622.html

    I am glad to be slowly switching to wet/drys.
    But, I needed to measure and explore the canister filters more.
    I am less likely to clean these filters and hate bleaching them etc, than say a simple sponge pre and post filter in a sump/overflow.
    I can add delete carbon or purigen quickly and I get surface skimming. I also use about 1/2 the energy for the same flow.

    They are nice in other aspects for sure. But for me, the trade offs are larger, and I'd rather not change the canister filters to clean them:)
    I'm lazy there.

    The other hybrid option, which I have done on a one tank, is to use a post Canister filter after the wet/dry.
    I did not find this to be all that helpful, I still cleaned it about the same routine.

    I'll be selling two UV 375 Ocean clear canisters soon.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  19. inkslinger

    inkslinger Guru Class Expert

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    Hey Jim starting to get cool here in MA. no snow yet. Room temp is 76F-80F, I have a 110g tank close cover with a canopy with 3 pairs of t5 ho 54w, I'm running a Blue Line 55 HD 1100gph pump an have 2 legs 1 goes to the Nu-Clear 533 and 547 fliters and the 2nd leg goes to a 3/4 Mazzie .
    My problem was after the filter an Mazzie I merge them back to together with a Wye-Ball Valve-Wye then to 2 returns so it look like this >--< my temp stayed at 90F all the time. With only 60" in my cabinet it's not much room to work with and I have the tank close to the wall in my apartment. If you see the pic's that I posted my pump is on the left side , I ran my intake all the way to the right side of the tank an added a barb ball valve an curved the hose back to the right side to the pump for now, I plan on this spring to swing that pump to the right side an slide my filters an Mazzie to the right to give my pump more breathing room an to get rid of the elbow I have on top of the pump and at the filter and Mazzie
     
  20. Jim Miller

    Jim Miller Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Ink

    Understand the return thing. I'll make sure to avoid similar. I'm considering a Mazzei or homebrew venturi as well and haven't figured out yet where to place it. I don't care for the fizzie water effect so perhaps I'll eventually go another way. In either case I'm planning to put the Mazzei or reactor after the filter to avoid clogging it and with 1.5" return plumbing I think my issues should be minimized.

    I didn't understand the various temps however. You stated your room temp is 76-80f yet your cabinet temp where the pump is located is 60f. How is that possible?

    I've got an open top and less light wattage so I may have more cooling due to evaporation.

    These fractional horsepower AC pump motors are very inefficient. It seems brushless DC operation hasn't come yet to this part of the market. Maybe someday. Brushless DC would also permit efficient motor speed control.

    If the T4 turns out to be too much to handle I can step down to the Quiet 1 5000 which is lower power, lower flow and noisier but allegedly not as noisy as the Iwaki units.

    If that fails I'll just Ebay the whole pile of crap and go back to my original Eheim 2078 plan. Won't get the flow but at least I won't hear it.

    The good news is that I just received word that my tank will be ready January 4.

    Jim (who lived in Methuen right out of college for a year before moving to southern NH back in the late 60s)
     
    #20 Jim Miller, Dec 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2010
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