This is the first and only aquatic forum (or pretty much any type of forum) I've been to where thus far I haven't run into any people who are just there to make themselves sound like they know something when they don't or speak condescendingly to people. Every single response I've gotten has been not only courteous but informative and useful. Great job everyone!!!!
I just wanted to say this forum is great!
- Thread starter Carissa
- Start date
Well, I'll yell at them if they do
hehe
Oddly, some of the same folks that do that on other forums accuse me of such baloney.
I'm very low tech as much as I am high tech.
Grower and scaper.
CO2 high light and non CO2 and/or low light.
Sediment, water column etc.
If you claim authority, expertise, and what not, you need to know how and why for all methods, not just one.
You soon realize that you do not know nothing pretty quick and new questions are very interesting. We are on a path and we should seek more and new areas to explore.
Aquatic plants and our skills as hobbyists etc, evolve through time.
It's not just some point where we have enough knowledge to call someone an "expert", it's the path and journey that never stops.
I re visit things like our assumptions. CO2, light, nutrients and keep going back and back again to see if there might be something new we missed.
For some it does stop, and that is fine, but they assume they know it all and that their goal is the same as everyone else's, which even a naive person would suggest is not true
Your goal and their's might be very very different.
No one should ever look down on another for that.
What irks me is when they suggests because I have an education that I have some ivory tower attitude and use "science" to bully them. I'm an ex union meat cutter for 12 years, worked in factory, had plenty of humbling hard working blue collar jobs, been homeless and I've managed to work my way through school and get to the top schools and educate myself.
I do not look down at anyone else. We all take our paths, but when they suggests that attitude about education, it really is that they are insecure about their own education, they perceive things that way, it's not reality however.
I'm not smarter, I just did the academic work. They did not.
A good example: playing bass guitar. I worked, practiced etc, they did not. Do I look down upon beginning bassist or folks that do not play bass?
No!
That's silly.
Do I look down on people that only play one method well?
No, I prefer to play many types of music, not just one.
Same deal here.
Some folks only like classical music, some only like one type of aquatic plant tank method, art scape, plant, etc.
This hobby is perhaps more Social Science that Plant Science BTW.
If the "experts" where really passionate and interested in aquatic plants, they should purse Plant Science and we are ...as we do.
Amano is interested in gardening, so he does that.
Jeff Senske is interested in his business and doing scapes, so he does that.
Trolls and big mouths are interested in doing that.............so it goes.........
I might disagree with some folks but it's the topic, not them personally.
I think I scare off some of those folks you mention here.
But I never try to do that, the goal is the plants, not personal ego driven gain.
Regards,
Tom Barr
hehe
Oddly, some of the same folks that do that on other forums accuse me of such baloney.
I'm very low tech as much as I am high tech.
Grower and scaper.
CO2 high light and non CO2 and/or low light.
Sediment, water column etc.
If you claim authority, expertise, and what not, you need to know how and why for all methods, not just one.
You soon realize that you do not know nothing pretty quick and new questions are very interesting. We are on a path and we should seek more and new areas to explore.
Aquatic plants and our skills as hobbyists etc, evolve through time.
It's not just some point where we have enough knowledge to call someone an "expert", it's the path and journey that never stops.
I re visit things like our assumptions. CO2, light, nutrients and keep going back and back again to see if there might be something new we missed.
For some it does stop, and that is fine, but they assume they know it all and that their goal is the same as everyone else's, which even a naive person would suggest is not true
Your goal and their's might be very very different.
No one should ever look down on another for that.
What irks me is when they suggests because I have an education that I have some ivory tower attitude and use "science" to bully them. I'm an ex union meat cutter for 12 years, worked in factory, had plenty of humbling hard working blue collar jobs, been homeless and I've managed to work my way through school and get to the top schools and educate myself.
I do not look down at anyone else. We all take our paths, but when they suggests that attitude about education, it really is that they are insecure about their own education, they perceive things that way, it's not reality however.
I'm not smarter, I just did the academic work. They did not.
A good example: playing bass guitar. I worked, practiced etc, they did not. Do I look down upon beginning bassist or folks that do not play bass?
No!
That's silly.
Do I look down on people that only play one method well?
No, I prefer to play many types of music, not just one.
Same deal here.
Some folks only like classical music, some only like one type of aquatic plant tank method, art scape, plant, etc.
This hobby is perhaps more Social Science that Plant Science BTW.
If the "experts" where really passionate and interested in aquatic plants, they should purse Plant Science and we are ...as we do.
Amano is interested in gardening, so he does that.
Jeff Senske is interested in his business and doing scapes, so he does that.
Trolls and big mouths are interested in doing that.............so it goes.........
I might disagree with some folks but it's the topic, not them personally.
I think I scare off some of those folks you mention here.
But I never try to do that, the goal is the plants, not personal ego driven gain.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Carissa;18709 said:
I’m usually lurking in the background reading through the forums and the newsletters that are available. The vast amount of information here can be overwhelming however I like the fact that the forums administrators, moderators and members take the no-nonsense approach to solving issues and problems, helping you reach a solution while debunking myth.
You guys are doing a great job, keep it up!
The other large factor is that we have a subscriber based membership and business plan. Keeps the trolls out.
For the people, of the people and by the people => the planted hobbyists.
No one else.
I've locked 2 threads and rapidly banned two people who knew they'd be banned if they came here. Otherwise, this place is amazingly peaceful.
Something many do not think of me as in the least ironically.
Fine with me, I like peace, good discussion, information etc.
I just do not put up with personal attacks and ....... I slap back, many folks don't.
I don't take it personal though.
Waste of time.
I think there are many expert folks on this list also. Very clever.
While some might be great at all the genera, no one really is, we all make a nice cohesive group.
No one person is going to be able to master all the methods, or all the styles of music say, but you can and should appreciate them and try them out and practice enough to master them.
I've tried hard to succeed at as many ,methods as I can come up with.
Same old thing is boring to me
So I seek new things and learn new things.
Sometimes about old subjects,m sometimes something novel.
I have always considered myself a student, not a master or an authority figure.
"The more I know, the more I realize the less I know" is a saying that is often said.
Other folks might said I'm this or someone else is that, but I do not have any right to suggest my authority is trumping anyone or use it to lord over others without support.
I've met some plant folks like that recently.
Amazed me, they wanted to get into a pee contest with me.
Who have more experience blah blah.........
You learn by doing and making mistakes and not repeating them
So ultimately you base you opinion and efforts on what is really the sound advice that's honest and straight, you prove it your self.
You do not have prove anything to someone else.
Nor should you.
I basically say this is what I did, how I did it, here's the support, here's my conclusions etc.
I do not want you to believe me, I want you to prove these things to yourself!
Then you'll know, you'll have the tools, you no longer need someone to help you, you can now help yourself and help others.
All I do is guide.
Say where I went wrong and how I figured a way around it.
When folks do not detail out such methods, and keep avoiding addressing those, I get pretty suspicious and rightly so. If you have done the methods and test, you know the pitfalls, you know how and what went wrong.
If not, you are guessing and trying to use semantics to support your argument and belief.
It's a thin veil and to myself, I feel it would be dishonest if I did any of that.
Of course you have to passionate enough to test and use the methods and stick with it until you have a success, not just try a few times in failure and accept that method is bad etc.
Success and being clever enough to find a way to achieve that is neat goal.
We all fail, we do not all succeed :idea:
So we should base the criteria on successes, not mere failures.
Something works, let's see why, how and pick it apart.
Then by doing so, we can understand it much better and reduce the failures.
But you have to accept that something works to begin with.
Example excess PO4 does not => algae.
Then you test it and find that it's true.
But if you have algae and issues already, that's hardly any control or standard for success to base a conclusion on, you had confounding factors before the test.
Most aquarists have those confounding factors and it makes life hard and them very suspicious and confused as to who to believe.
A beginner does not KNOW, they can only guess and believe.
So I'd rather help them know!
It's a longer path though but you learn a lot more and it works really well.
Regards,
Tom Barr
For the people, of the people and by the people => the planted hobbyists.
No one else.
I've locked 2 threads and rapidly banned two people who knew they'd be banned if they came here. Otherwise, this place is amazingly peaceful.
Something many do not think of me as in the least ironically.
Fine with me, I like peace, good discussion, information etc.
I just do not put up with personal attacks and ....... I slap back, many folks don't.
I don't take it personal though.
Waste of time.
I think there are many expert folks on this list also. Very clever.
While some might be great at all the genera, no one really is, we all make a nice cohesive group.
No one person is going to be able to master all the methods, or all the styles of music say, but you can and should appreciate them and try them out and practice enough to master them.
I've tried hard to succeed at as many ,methods as I can come up with.
Same old thing is boring to me
So I seek new things and learn new things.
Sometimes about old subjects,m sometimes something novel.
I have always considered myself a student, not a master or an authority figure.
"The more I know, the more I realize the less I know" is a saying that is often said.
Other folks might said I'm this or someone else is that, but I do not have any right to suggest my authority is trumping anyone or use it to lord over others without support.
I've met some plant folks like that recently.
Amazed me, they wanted to get into a pee contest with me.
Who have more experience blah blah.........
You learn by doing and making mistakes and not repeating them
So ultimately you base you opinion and efforts on what is really the sound advice that's honest and straight, you prove it your self.
You do not have prove anything to someone else.
Nor should you.
I basically say this is what I did, how I did it, here's the support, here's my conclusions etc.
I do not want you to believe me, I want you to prove these things to yourself!
Then you'll know, you'll have the tools, you no longer need someone to help you, you can now help yourself and help others.
All I do is guide.
Say where I went wrong and how I figured a way around it.
When folks do not detail out such methods, and keep avoiding addressing those, I get pretty suspicious and rightly so. If you have done the methods and test, you know the pitfalls, you know how and what went wrong.
If not, you are guessing and trying to use semantics to support your argument and belief.
It's a thin veil and to myself, I feel it would be dishonest if I did any of that.
Of course you have to passionate enough to test and use the methods and stick with it until you have a success, not just try a few times in failure and accept that method is bad etc.
Success and being clever enough to find a way to achieve that is neat goal.
We all fail, we do not all succeed :idea:
So we should base the criteria on successes, not mere failures.
Something works, let's see why, how and pick it apart.
Then by doing so, we can understand it much better and reduce the failures.
But you have to accept that something works to begin with.
Example excess PO4 does not => algae.
Then you test it and find that it's true.
But if you have algae and issues already, that's hardly any control or standard for success to base a conclusion on, you had confounding factors before the test.
Most aquarists have those confounding factors and it makes life hard and them very suspicious and confused as to who to believe.
A beginner does not KNOW, they can only guess and believe.
So I'd rather help them know!
It's a longer path though but you learn a lot more and it works really well.
Regards,
Tom Barr
The way I look at it, keeping fish or plants or whatever you're doing, is all a matter of science. Maybe we don't understand all the science (well I understand very little for one and that's why I'm here), but the facts are all there to find out somehow. You find them out by looking at evidence. But some people don't seem to value evidence very much, and they are out posting on boards things that they have never seen evidence for, but nevertheless for some inexplicable reason believe wholeheartedly. Then if you contradict them, instead of using evidence and reasoning to show where you are wrong, they start attacking your character.
Anyway my whole point in going out on a forum is just to find information that someone else has evidence for because I don't want to have to learn everything through trial and error. On most forums I have to carefully sift through to find people that are willing to provide evidence and rationale for what they are saying, but here everyone pretty much provides their rationale or at least I know they have it if I want it which is refreshing. It makes it a whole lot easier to learn not just what someone thinks I should do but why it will work.
Anyway my whole point in going out on a forum is just to find information that someone else has evidence for because I don't want to have to learn everything through trial and error. On most forums I have to carefully sift through to find people that are willing to provide evidence and rationale for what they are saying, but here everyone pretty much provides their rationale or at least I know they have it if I want it which is refreshing. It makes it a whole lot easier to learn not just what someone thinks I should do but why it will work.
Carissa;18766 said:
Well, some folks take it as a personal afront if you question them or ask for more support. I do too if it's beyond "reasonable".
So I also ask "why and how" they do this as well
Generally folks will attack character, this is IME and IMO after dealing with web folks for over 10 years, if they lack any real evidence to the contrary to support their idea/contention or belief.
I just coming with logic and evidence.
That makes their entire approach and argument mute really quick and bugs the heck out of them cause they got pounded and missed the entire lesson which was about plants, and ideas, not personal attacks.
They do not stay on topic, attack the idea, never the person.
Do not judge them too harshly, show by example.
That is my approach, you might find another easier for you.
Regards,
Tom Barr