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i just bought my fertilizers and need some help

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by happi, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. happi

    happi Junior Poster

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    this is what i have bought and im not sure how long they would last till i run out and this will be used for 50G tank 30% water change every 2 weeks or 20% water change every week. i have nova extreme 108 Watts 2x 54 each 10,000k and pink bulb for plant growth. Co2 with 3BPS, stays green on check drop. what do you think about the WPG because its only 108W, the fixture is T5HO and it makes about 2.16 WPG. am planning on growing high light plants such as HC.


    this is what i have bought:
    CSM+B Plantex
    Mono Potassium Phosphate
    Calcium Sulfate
    Magnesium Sulfate
    already have Nitrate


    it would be nice if you could give me a guide to add each of them or how to mix them with 250ML water. i will be using 250ml bottle for this. should i store all of them in the refrigerator or keep them in dark under 70 degree room temp.
    i could also do the dry method but need advise on how much to add and what kind of tool is needed to add this.

    please do let me know about how long this stuff would last before i need to buy more.

    thank you
     
  2. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi happi,
    Welcome to the Barr report. I hope I can help a little bit. Were I error in my ways, I submit to Tom and to those more experienced. But first some questions? Do you have any fish in the tank and how heavily planted is it? What is the water quality (kH, etc.) of the water your adding at water change and why are you only changing 20% a week, not 50%? What is your source of Nitrate? The light you are using is plenty high and will require a rich dose of nutrients and more then likely a little more CO2 then you are currently adding. Read as much as you can on all things CO2.

    Your fertilizer should last you a long time. Once you've dosed your tank a few times you will have a better idea of how long. Dry dosing works fine, get some standard teaspoon measures from the drugstore. If you want a little more control stock solutions can be used. Store them in a dark, cool closet and keep PO4 separate from CSM to prevent the Fe and PO4 from forming a precipitate, rendering it useless. I keep KNO3 and KH2PO4 in their own separate solutions to very the dose depending on the situation. But, MgSO4, K2SO4 and KNO3 can be added to CSM+B without any problems. It's really not that different then mixing PMDD. http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html

    CSM+B STOCK SOLUTION should go something like this;
    Add 1 tablespoon of CSM+B to 500 mL of distilled water for a stock solution
    [(3*4300)/100*6.53]*1000/500
    ≈1684.74mg/L Fe
    Adding 1mL stock solution to 1L of column
    =1.68474mg/L.
    Assuming a 50 gallon tank has a 160L water column - 13mL of this stock solution
    ≈ .14ppm of Fe.
    Adjust the amount down over time until you see symptoms of deficiency or raise the amount if you see you need more. 10mL of the stock solution 3 times a week should be plenty for your tank.

    I use Gh booster which has Mg and Ca as well as K+ and add it during the water change. You can dry dose yours depending on what's already in the tap water and what your targets are. Chuck Gadd’s dosing calculator can help you create stock solutions for MgSO4 and KH2PO4. http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm
     
    #2 Tug, Dec 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2009
  3. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    If you clean your bottles good before use. Then storing it in the fridge is fine.
    I'm also doing it this way.

    Keeping it at room temp requires adding something like Excel or muriatic acid
    to prevent mold.

    You know, if you change water 50% weekly you can follow this guideline
    very easily using measuring spoons (such as Norpro which you can buy from eBay).
    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2819-EI-light-for-those-less-techy-folks

    Your light is not very high (which I think is good), so you can reduce the ferts by half.
    Or adjust it by observing your plants and critters.

    To get something like GH booster (minus K2SO4-which I think unneeded), just
    mix CaSO4 and MgSO4 by 2:1 ratio.
     
    #3 nipat, Dec 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2009
  4. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Nice math, Tug. Just wondering where the 3* is coming from. It does follow with the rest of what you're saying; perhaps you're recommending 3 tsp instead of 1?

    Here's the short version of a formula I use for dosing desired concentrations based on % of weight as in Fe from CSM+B:

    Required weight in mg = (100/concentration of original compound)*(desired concentration)*(ml of solution)

    So we'll say .9ppm of Fe is our desired level of concentration in the column, and we're using a 500ml batch:

    =(100/6.53)*0.9*500
    = ~6891.2710mg

    Of course this presumes you want 1ml/L dosing. Just multiply by the number of L's per ml that you want to dose. 1ml for every 2L would be *2 at the end of the equation.

    From there it's just a matter of dividing for teaspoons if you don't have a scale. (get a scale; a $20 one accurate to even .1 of a gram makes stock solutions far more accurate)

    This formula and similar is going to be the center of most of the DIY section of the fert guide that I'm going to get working on soon. Deconstruction will be a bit trickier.
     
  5. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Getting back to the OP though...

    CaSO4 won't dissolve so nicely; every dose needs to be premixed into some tank water, then dosed into the column. You may not even need it; what does your tap water look like? Can you get a water quality report detailing Ca and Mg in your tap? The same may be true of magnesium.

    The KH2PO4 should be fine at 1.07g per 250ml for 3ppm dosing; very roughly 1/6 of a teaspoon, but a scale would be better. Add at 1ml for every 3L of column, 3x per week.

    You should order yourself up some potassium sulfate (K2SO4) as well; you'll need it more than any of the other ferts you've bought right now given that you're not dosing KNO3.

    For storage, Nipat is on the right track. Some excel or HCL will stablize things for your micros, and dark containers are good. Excel keeps things for a few months, HCL does even better. Let us know which one you plan on using. If HCL, include the concentration.

    Personally I'd recommend getting a python if you don't have one (or DIY for about $20), and pulling 50% every week. You're running a high light tank; 2wpg of T5HO is more like 3wpg of CF or T8. You need higher levels of ferts than a low light tank, and you're going to find that a cleaner column makes life a ton easier.

    HC honestly isn't a high light plant. It's a CO2 demanding plant. Good spread in lighting does not mean high lighting, though better spread usually requires at least a small increase in wattage. You could grow HC at 1/2 your current lighting level if your spread is good enough, and more importantly your CO2 distributed thoroughly. One easy trick is to keep the fixture on the front 1/3 of the tank so that the back/midground plants don't block the light.
     
  6. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    Indeed, I thought you (the thread owner) said you already had KNO3. If your nitrate means it's already in the water.
    Then buy K2SO4. And dose around 3/8 tsp (1/4 + 1/8 tsp) or 1/2 tsp, 3x a week.

    By the way, K2SO4 is also not readily soluble, may not look nice to see white powder on plant leaves or substrate.
    So you may dose it at night. Or dose it once a week when you change water (around 1 + 1/2 tsp).

    This amount of K2SO4 will give potassium 16-21 PPM a week. Someone, myself included, may dose higher than this.
     
  7. happi

    happi Junior Poster

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    ok thank you all for your advice and i will let you guys know more once i receive my chemicals. these math formulas are really hard for me to understand. that is why i prefer very simple stuff.
    my water hardness is around 200-300, alkalinity between 100-160 and PH around 7.4

    i do have nitrate which i mixed with my aquarium water. i added 2 tablespoon of nitrate with 250ml of RO water and i add about 2-3 ml 2 times a week. i do test this to keep it around 10-20ppm range. i think the nitrate seems to be working fine without any problem.

    this is what i use for nitrate:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170365743192&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

    do i still need K2SO4?

    i will ask for more help once i receive the stuff and i will post any question i might have on this same thread

    so which one is it 1 or 3?
     
  8. happi

    happi Junior Poster

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  9. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    Well, that's KNO3. So you don't need K2SO4.

    CSM+B has Fe in it already. But the type of chelator it uses is EDTA which is not stable in water
    with high KH. So some people add Fe-DTPA too.
     
    #9 nipat, Dec 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2009
  10. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Thanks buddy, I'm trying. The 4300, (4.3g) is a grams/teaspoon conversion for CSMB Fe. The 3* is three teaspoons or one tablespoon. Some (all of) this is math I would love to see you deconstruct in your DIY primer as well as some of the math from you up above. For CSM+B and other fertilizers like GH booster, knowing how we could determine what to add and/or how much was added would be extremely helpful. I look forward to your article.

    Can we look at your water quality report? According to Chuck Gadd's calculator each ML of your stock solution will add .51ppm Nitrate to your water column. With a 2-3mL dose you are adding about 1.5ppm of NO3 each time you dose your tank. Either the test you are using is off and should be calibrated or there is something else wrong for your nitrates to be as high as 20ppm. A 10mL dose of your stock solution of KNO3 would add nitrate at about 5ppm. Better.

    Enjoy the holiday everyone and have a Happy Christmas. I have my regulator purchased from Leftc under the tree. Here's hopping we all get what we want for Christmas and the coming year.

    Best wishes,
     
  11. happi

    happi Junior Poster

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    im not sure where i could get my water tested for things like calicium, phosphate, iron etc. the only thing i could test is basic stuff like nitrate, PH, ammonia etc from the pet store. i forgot to let you know one thing, that i have used that nitrate on my 20 gallon tank. i am planning on upgrading to buy 50g and that is why i was asking question based on 50g tank. so far i have added about 1st day 3ml, 2nd day 3ml and 3rd day about 5ml nitrate, right now the test shows that it was at 15-20 ppm. yes my test kit could give wrong results too. so do i still need to buy the Fe iron or CSM+B should complete those needs.

    i am waiting for my stuff to arrive, thats when i could ask more question if i have any. anyway where do i buy those little teaspoon for the messurements. can anyone suggest store like walmart, lowes etc.

    merry christmas to everyone and happy new year.
     
  12. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    CSM+B has EDTA Fe (chelated iron). You may want to add some Fe-DTPA (another form of chelated iron) with CSM+B at a 1 to 3 ratio, 1tsp Fe-DTPA to 1 tbsp CSM+B. It would give you another source of iron.

    The local water authority for your area should have an annual report of some kind on their web site. Where do you live?

    That makes more sense; 3.5mL should add about 5ppm to the water column of your 20 (about 56L).
     
    #12 Tug, Dec 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2009
  13. happi

    happi Junior Poster

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    hi Tug thanks for the information. i was just wondering if i could use this product as iron, because its just sitting around.

    http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2754007

    i live in USA, UTAH, Salt Lake City

    i think this is where we get our water from but im not sure.

    www.rockymtnwater.com

    like i said i cant be sure and i dont know how to find out where my water come from. thanks
     
  14. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I was unable to tell which form of chelated iron it has in it. I'll see if I can't find out more about it. Maybe the bottle tells more about the product. It is probably one we haven't discussed on this thread or one I'm not familiar with. That said, I can't see how it would be a problem and the added K+ wouldn't be bad. :cool: I think you are probably lower in potassium then you should be anyway. Like I said it should be fine. Maybe someone knows more about it.
    Are you using bottled water? :p
     
    #14 Tug, Dec 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2009
  15. happi

    happi Junior Poster

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    unless you are talking about filling up the bottle with tap water lol. no i dont use RO or bottle water. as the water is hard and im sure RO water is never hard. im sorry i sent you the wrong link. here is the corret one after looking at my bill i found this info.

    here is the company link:
    http://www.tbid.org/

    $33 for 16,000 gallon (per month i think)

    just wondering how much would it cost for 100 gallon of water (50% water change every week on 50g aquarium)

    that leaf zone iron product contain:
    guaranteed analysis 0-0-3
    soluble potash (k20) 3.0%
    iron (Fe) 0.1%
    0.1% chelated iron (fe)
    derived from: potassium sulfate and iron EDTA

    i called the company today about their water, but they were close today and i left them a email. im not sure if they will be able to tell me eveything that their water include such as calcium, iron etc. i did not see any of this info on their website. thank you
     
  16. admin_old

    admin_old Administrator
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    Leaf Zone has EDTA chelated Iron ...

    Greg Watson
     
  17. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Happi-
    Sorry, I was not suggesting bottled water or RO. Continue to learn more about your public utilities water supply. I was able to find a report for 2004 at http://www.slcgov.com/utilities/PU%20WEB/Water%20Quality.htm It's the pdf file under the 2002 Consumer Confidence Report. It looks as if you don't need to worry too much about Ca or Mg. Maybe dose a little when you change the water. I personally would add a little potassium. The goal is to reach levels that are non-limiting for all the nutrients and potassium is a rather important aspect of plant health/growth.

    Not too bad. It's better used for dosing small aquariums. CSM+B at the above concentration (1 tablespoon into 500mL water) is around .15% Fe-EDTA. So, same chelated iron, only think of it as paying you at time and a half with CSM. That can add up.
     
    #17 Tug, Dec 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2009
  18. happi

    happi Junior Poster

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    hi Tug

    thank you for your help. i was hoping for my stuff to arrive today but i forgot it wont come in mail today because of holiday.

    anyway i was little confuse and was wondering if i need to buy Ca or Mg. are you talking about Mono Potassium Phosphate right? i was told there is no need for Magnesium Sulfate. if i really need to buy the Magnesium Sulfate then i will go ahed and buy it. unless there is some other way to get it from the local pet store etc.

    they said this is all i need(i did get some extra thing since they were $3):

    CSM+B Plantex
    Mono Potassium Phosphate
    Calcium Sulfate
    Magnesium Sulfate
    Potassium Nitrate

    can you try to answer this question as well:
    $33 for 16,000 gallon (per month i think)
    just wondering how much would it cost for 100 gallon of water (50% water change every week on 50g aquarium)

    that leaf zone iron so how much should i add because i wont be mixing it with the 250ml or 500ml bottles. i will be using the cap which shows 2ml, 5ml, 10ml on it. how much would i use based on 50g tank.

    quick question: i know that fish could die from adding too much nitrate. is there any of the other chemical which has the same effect if overdose etc.

    thank you again and merry christmas to you and your family.
     
    #18 happi, Dec 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2009
  19. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Checking it twice...

    Sorry, it's easy to slip into referring to elements like calcium or magnesium as Ca and Mg. They are listed on the periodic table. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table

    Ca and Mg are part of Calcium Sulfate and Magnesium Sulfate. So, no. You're already buying it. If you take the time to read your water quality report you will see calcium levels between 23 and 136ppm. More then enough. Magnesium levels where between 5.9 and 39ppm. I believe 5.9ppm would be non-limiting levels, but you might add a little to be on the safe side.

    Leaf zone must give a recommended dose. When trying to determine how much to dose, use water column (how much water is really in your 50 gallon tank) not the size of your tank. You want to dose fertilizer based on the size of the water column. In the case of a 50 gallon planted tank the water column is probably closer to 160L. If you were to add 20mL leaf zone to 160L water column your adding about .12ppm of Fe-EDTA and ruffly 3ppm potassium. I'm a little off on the numbers, but I'm close. Follow the directions on the label and you should be fine. Stay within the recommended dose for all your fertilizers and you'll be fine.

    100 gallons/16,000 gallons
    ≈ .6%
    .6% of $33
    ≈ 20 cents
     
    #19 Tug, Dec 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2009
  20. happi

    happi Junior Poster

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    thank you for your information, i hope am not bugging you in any way.

    i did not know that it would cost about 20 cents per month for the water changes lol. i heard people complaing about their water bills being high due to aquariums. looks like am ready and set, just cant wait till i get my chemicals.
    anyway you forgot to answer one thing, quick question: i know that fish could die from adding too much nitrate. is there any of the other chemical which has the same effect if overdose etc.
    what happen if we overdose iron.

    this is a new question:
    algae related: i have been having serious algae in my 20G tank. no matter what i do it will always comes back even worse. i always added the nutrients but nothing gorws either, beside algae. could low water flow be any problem here. i know my co2 is good enough and always stayed lime green. i was recomended to add Koralia 1 with my rena xp2 to make sure all the nutrients mix well for the 50G. is that correct? does good water flow play any big role in this case.


    thank you
     
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