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how to mantain hard plants??

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Brian20, Aug 3, 2009.

  1. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    well I know several tips but still not have experience with "hard" plants.

    I will have downoi but also want toninas and eriocaulons. I can have this especies of plants in only one tank? Also the tank are in the exterior, well not so exterior it have trasparent roof. Well the tanks is doin well from the beggining and plants grow fast. what are the precautions before have this plants?
     
    #1 Brian20, Aug 3, 2009
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    DI Water

    Hi Brian,

    To be honest I would at least start them in DI water. The Toninas are among the few soft water plants that I have found to be truly soft water plants. I buy them DI water since the cost of cleaning up the liquid rock that comes out of my faucet is so high.

    After starting them in DI water, nice substrate, then start gently, gives them some time to adjust, raising the hardness to match your tank.

    I really haven’t tried this with toninas, but it is the way I would proceed.

    Biollante
     
    #2 Biollante, Aug 3, 2009
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    If the tap is 4-5 or so, KH you are alright and can use that for the Tonia.
    GH can be quite high however(10 etc).

    I'm not sure they are "harder" than other species really.
    To me, a hard species is something I have to trim more often:cool:
    The only difference is that harder species might be a bit more sensitive when growth parameters are poor, and mostly CO2, followed by limiting nutrients.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #3 Tom Barr, Aug 4, 2009
  4. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    Ok, to be sure,I can have toninas, eriocaulons and downoi in the same tank (same parameters)? I will check the kh and gh today. I alredy have "easy plants" bacopa, ammania bonsai, rotala green (but turn red in high sun), rotala nanjenshan, ludwigia arcuata, dwarf hairgrass and a few other plants. all growing very well without CO2 but all are pearling.I think that the substrate that I make make CO2 the first month due bacterial activity:) but Im going to use CO2 when I have the CO2 tank

    Brian
     
    #4 Brian20, Aug 4, 2009
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Brian

    Your other thread http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/6082-how-mantain-hard-plants.html makes it difficult to follow.

    From the other:

    :( Unhappy In The Land of DI - Yesterday, 06:52 PM
    Hi Brian,

    I don’t think the downoi should be much of a problem.

    I think you are in the land of RO/DI water, my friend, with the Eriocaulons/Toninas. I don’t know that the use of acids to reduce the pH are actually going to get you where your plants want to be.

    However, I have been wrong before!

    I have read of people succeeding at higher GH and KH than yours with one of the ADA substrates. I will see if I can find the name.

    Your substrate mixture might pull it off. Me, I would add a layer of peat, I might even run peat in the filter, if you don't want brown water that is out, I suppose.

    Good luck,
    Biollante
     
    #5 Biollante, Aug 4, 2009
  6. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    well, the Kh is 7dKh and the gh is 1??? gh never change color, maybe it is old.

    im thinking to use acid buffer so I can down the kH and ph in the near future for toninas. I can have the eriocaulon??
     
    #6 Brian20, Aug 4, 2009
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    You Will Do Well

    Hi Brian,

    I have a similar situation with ‘hard water’ high KH and low to non-existent GH. I use Barr’s GH Booster in my aquariums.:cool: Planted Aquarium Fertilizer - Dry Fertilizers, Dry Fertilizers, Planted Aquarium Fertilizer - Barrs GH Booster, Barrs GH Booster,

    The pH reducers won’t actually condition the water the way you want, ‘hitting a number’ isn’t going to change the growing conditions.

    I wouldn’t think you would have much of a problem with something like Eriocaulon setaceum or Eriocaulon sp. 'cinereum' with an acidic substrate, especially if you are going to add CO2.
    Eriocaulon cinereum (Eriocaulon sp. 'cinereum')

    I am gathering from Tom Barr’s posts and the John N, administrator guy that I am the only entity on the planet that has ever had a problem with Toninias, you should do well, my friend.

    For what it is worth I recommend two and-a-half inches, minimum, to four inches (6-10 cm) of substrate for any of the above plants, they tend to develop sizable root balls when happy. :) They don't like being moved around.:eek:

    Biollante
     
    #7 Biollante, Aug 4, 2009
  8. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    thank for the reply

    well, I think that the Gh problem is the test itself, im growing several number of plants in that water for a long time (7 months in backyard shop that I have 15 planted aquarium and the new display aquarium 20 Gallons were y want to put the difficults plants) and 2 years in my aquarium.

    Also gH is calcium and magnesium and when the water level is low it form white crust.

    So there are low GH but not too low, for I can see the gH is between 1??? to 5.

    I will try to test gh in other waters or buy another gh test.

    well the main problem is kH. I will try to take the pH of the substrate. the substrate pH before use is between 4-5. Is a mineralized soil substrate with red acidic clay and peat. On top have thrifty sorb (calcined clay). I use that conbination for 15 - 10G tanks and the plants are growing fine without CO2.
    There are a lot of substrate so I think that not be a problem, I will try the eriocaulons that you say. well i need the CO2, if I dont have it soon I can use the CO2 by fermentation??? I know that the CO2 not is steady an can vary the pH. It can be a problem with eriocaulions??

    Im so interested in these "hard" plants that I dont know if I well prepared to buy these costly plants:D

    I have 2 year in planted aquariums and I have a lots of plants in good conditions but i never have these "Hard plants" so im completly noob.
     
    #8 Brian20, Aug 4, 2009
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    I think you will do well!

    I would still suggest at least 'cutting' your water with a little RO, just to bring that KH down a bit, but as I said before according to others it should not be a problem.

    I had a tough time with my Tonina fluviatilis, (also am growing some emmersed) but it is now doing well enough that I am going to try a serious bit of aquascaping featuring some of my babies.:rolleyes:

    Biollante
     
    #9 Biollante, Aug 4, 2009
  10. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    ok, i will try with using like 25% RO water

    what are good quantities of nitrate and phosphate 1:16 ratio?
     
    #10 Brian20, Aug 5, 2009
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Do NOT mess with ratios, that's hogwash. It's useful to dose the right amounts of each, some think it's a ratio, but it's just the fact they are adding some and not strongly limiting anything.

    I have a ratio of NO3: PO4 of 3:1, no issues.
    I've done leaner ratios, say 10:1 or 20:1.

    Not much different to tell the truth, you also have sediment ferts, so the water column does not tell you much as far as the plant's status..........something many that cling to a ratio concept seem 110% unaware, either by choice or ignorance in general.

    So is the sediment also 16:1?
    Probably not........

    So the water column's ratio is not going to matter either;)

    Focus on good CO2 if you plan on those species.
    Do not try them without the CO2 being optimal, they will do poorly more than likely otherwise.

    Sediment, pH, GH are less critical, KH and CO2 are.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #11 Tom Barr, Aug 5, 2009
  12. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    ok, to be secure, the downoi is in way so I will have it soon. I dose today KNO2 and I make a bad calculation so I now have 40 mg/l of nitrate, that is bad for downoi???


    thanks:D
     
    #12 Brian20, Aug 5, 2009
  13. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    If you are concerned about it, that is why we have water changes.

    The safe thing to do is a water change.

    Now to get myself in trouble, I wouldn't worry about it, I would certainly change my waterat the end of the week, but hey. I should have asked if there were any fish, might keep an eye on them.

    Biollante
     
    #13 Biollante, Aug 5, 2009
  14. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    6:55 PM
    only a yellow nose shrimp, i know the tank is in the cycling process but the shrimp seems healthy and active.

    I will wait to the next water change. I made one 2 days ago and not want to make water change so often in the cycle.
     
    #14 Brian20, Aug 5, 2009
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