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how to make a plants fertilizer solution?

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by Brian20, Oct 7, 2009.

  1. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    Hi, I have dry ferts and I make a solution for each fert except the pottasium.
    Well i have now 4 bottles of ferts that is good but some people dont like a lots of bottles. So I interested in make only one bottle with a mix of ferts.

    I know that chelated iron cant be mixed with phosphorous. So phosphorous cant be in the list. I have plantex, Iron, potasium and KNO3

    I can mix them in a single solutions?

    Brian
     
  2. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    If you just skip out on the PO4 you're going to have a train wreck. You can manage everything in 2 bottles if you don't need to add much calcium. Get all your K+'s in one, CSM+B and Mg in the other (add MgSO4.7H2O before the CSM+B). If you need a little calcium, you might be able to tinker around and get CaSO4 to fit in. I find CaCl2 doesn't play nicely, and I'm trying to refine my methods for it.

    -Philosophos
     
  3. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    I can make 2 bottles, one with Macros and one with Micros not is my point because people dont like macros here. Water here have a lot of Mg, Ca and maybe another trace elements.
     
  4. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Just keep all the K+ based compounds together in one bottle, and the trace in the other. This will give you a bottle of NPK, and a bottle of trace. Since they're seperate, it leaves you free to change your trace source when ever you like, and all of your NPK can go in on WC days to help prevent macro deficiencies.

    -Philosophos
     
  5. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    you think that I can make a solution like flourish, ou know add K and KNO3 to the trace elementas also chelated iron and the Phosphorous apart?
     
  6. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Flourish doesn't even give you proper NPK; this will. Most of flourish is in the micro/trace nutrients, which is a little harder to DIY. It's something I'm just starting to work on my self. For now, stick with CSM+B and maybe toss the odd bit of flourish in along side it to round out the trace. The NPK mix will take care of the rest.

    -Philosophos
     
  7. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

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    Ok, that sounds Good.

    well Im thinking, you know that plants needs macro and micros. I have a list of nutrients for plants. Mainly the half of nutrients you can have it from the water change if you have moderate-hard water. I wonder if also other nutrients helps plants, vitamins? quemicals? (like excel). I think companies are always looking for some more ponent fertilizer that the common fertilizers.
     
  8. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I like to keep KNO3 & K2SO4 in one bottle, KH2PO4 in another and trace in a third. But I'm special. I have three bottles. I also keep a little GH booster on the side for water changes.
    FYI,
    Flourish comprehensive has some K+ but I believe it's flourish trace that does not.
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    See PMDD and the Kribe(google it), same thing you are considering without PO4.

    You could dose the KH2PO4 in pulses 2-3x a week dry if you want, or do the single PO4 solution, or single trace solution, up to you.

    Since you have moderately hard water(what is the KH.GH?), you might consider using DTPA Fe in addition to CMS. I add about 1 tsp to each CMS table spoon(1:3 ratio).

    A nice bottle are those Tropica style self measuring 500ml bottles.
    they sell them on line, well worth the $.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  10. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Flourish comprehensive has exactly the same nutrients as trace, plus some more, and in higher levels. It does not have any K or P but has a very slight amount of NO3. Here's a chart that I've been passing around frequently as of late:

    Fertilizer Comparison Chart, by Giancarlo Podio

    -Philosophos
     
  11. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    You might want to check that chart.
    Even so, it's ok to dose K+ W/Nitrate or trace; even all three in one bottle. Just understand that at higher concentration levels, many nutrients precipitate out of solution.
     
    #11 Tug, Oct 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2009
  12. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hmm looks like the seachem site has updated, too. I wonder when they started adding it. Either way, even at 1ml/L of column dosed, you won't achieve 1ppm of K+. I'd include it in my calculations because I'm anal, but anyone who dry doses can just glaze right over it.

    -Philosophos
     
  13. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I use those amounts in a 500mL solution. I have tried my hand at the math... So here it goes. Would one mL of this 500 ml mix, (CSM+B & DTPA Fe) added to a 20 gallon tank raise the levels of Fe by 0.21 ppm? I'm ok with that, if it does.
     
  14. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I use this amount in a 500mL solution. I have tried my hand at the math... So here it goes. Would one mL of this solution (CSM+B & DTPA Fe) added to a 20 gallon tank raise the levels of Fe by 0.21 ppm?
     
    #14 Tug, Oct 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2009
  15. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Well presuming you're calling it 20 gal of column without subtracting for substrate, and that you're using fertilator's conversion ratios, no. You'd be dosing a very tiny amount; something like .000026459ppm.

    1ml of your solution would establish about 2ppm (2.00316) in 1L of column:

    = (8600/100*6.53)/500 + (4400/100*10)/500 = 2.00316
    = (561.58)/500 + (440)/500
    = 0.88 + 1.12316
    = 2.00316

    -Philosophos
     
  16. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I was trying to use your calculation. :eek: Something about total Fe from 1/16 tsp CSM+B added to a 20 gallon tank being around 0.76ppm and then Thinking (real problem with me) of applying the 3:1 ratio to get the concentration of DTPA Fe. Am I wrong to think 1/16 tsp CSM+B dry to 20 gallons is the same amount as 5mL of a 500mL solution (1 Tbsp of CSM+B in the mix) added to 20 gallons? Both recomended doses for 20 gallon tanks. That would explain my first error; add 0.16ppm for every mL CSM+B solution added to 20 gallons.
     
    #16 Tug, Oct 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2009
  17. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    I think the first point of your confusion is using dry weights. I don't work with formulas dry weights; I convert people's measurements in dry weight to grams, and when I'm done I convert it back.

    The problem with working in dry weight is that it uses presumptions about density that may not be the same. I use fertilator ratios for density, but I use my own math for the rest. I'm considering taking my own measurements because fertilator averages a bunch of other people's measurements, and sort of lacks accuracy. Google around for the threads on fertilator weights and you'll be surprised by what you find.

    My formulas above are all on the assumption that 1tsp CSM+B (6.53% fe) = 4.3g and 1tsp 10% Fe DTPA = 4.4g.

    Now this may be some of the issue that you're having. ppm is the same as mg/L, not mg/gal. You need to convert that 20 gal into L, which is 75.7082357. This means that 1ml adds 0.026417 ppm. Ignore my first post on what it'd give you; it was a guess based on half-assed calculations.

    CSM+B is 6.53% Fe, which is why I used it in my above post multiplied by what 2 tsp weighs; about 8600mg.

    It also doesn't hurt to subtract for substrate/hardscape. I usually presume 15%, and I'm usually not off by more than +/- 5% on an average tank given how many people aim for a 1-3 inch slope. For your own tanks, it's worth taking the time to measure through displacement or how much water it takes to fill up the first time.

    So lets do this calculation for establishing .21ppm which is what you were previously aiming for:

    First, knock 15% off the tank volume:

    = 75.7082357/100*(100-15)
    = 75.7082357/100*(85)
    = 0.757082357*85
    = 64.352000345

    I usually just round it off to 65L for a 20 gal; it's easier to remember, and this is a rough guess anyhow.

    So then, first we have our solution concentration: 2.00316mg/L Fe

    Lets find out how much we need of it to make 1L of water .21ppm of Fe

    =2.00316*.21
    =0.4206636

    So 0.4206636ml in 1L gives us .21ppm Fe in that liter.

    Now multiply by the number of liters you want to dose:

    =65*0.4206636
    =27.343134

    So altogether that would look like:
    =2.00316*.21*[75.7082357/100*(100-15)]

    You can just change out the .21 to any other concentration to dose for what ever you like.

    -Philosophos
     
  18. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Ok, so to review:
    our stock solution is 15 mL (3 teaspoons) CSM+B with 5 mL of DTPA Fe in 500 mL of distilled water. Notice I have added the weight for an additional 5 mL of CSM+B to the origanel calculation. Thanks for the grams/teaspoon conversions.
    Now I have a solution concentration of 2.564mg/L Fe

    I've decidded I want to know how much of our solution is added to 1L of water to make it 0.4ppm of Fe (substatuting .4 for .21) = 1.026mL

    Which would mean every mL of our solution added to a 65L column of water adds 0.006ppm Fe and/or adding 5mL of our solution to 65L only adds ruffly .03mg/L Fe. If I'm right. Is .03ppm be an acceptable level of iron for most situations?
     
  19. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Lets take a look over your math here. I'm using this formula in a spreadsheet:

    =[(3*4300)/100*6.53]*1000/500 + [(1*4400)/100*10]*1000/500
    =2564.74

    You've got a solution with 2564.74mg/L Fe. 1ml added to 1L of column would be 2.564mg/L Fe though.

    If you want to make it .4ppm Fe, simply do this:

    =.4/2.56474*65
    = 10.137479

    So about 10ml gets your .4ppm

    .03 is low; .1 is sort of a standard accepted level, but if you look back over the studies laying around here, 6-8ppm may be ideal. I like to keep it around .5-.1 to allow for some luxury uptake. I will be pushing this higher in the future.

    It's worth noting that with dry weight tsp measurements you may be off by something like +/- 15%. A $20 scale that measures accurately to .1 or .03 of a gram would greatly reduce this.

    -Philosophos
     
  20. Jeremy1

    Jeremy1 Prolific Poster

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