How many folks breed fish in their planted tanks?Is that more aesthetic than scapes?

[1077]

I am not sure I would agree that fish in planted tanks are healthier than fish in non planted tanks as some suggest, having raised fishes in bare bottom tanks. I believe how healthy the fish are is a direct result of the care and maint provided by the hobbyist along with diet.
With respect to breeding successfully, I often wonder about things that I am ignorant of such as effects of TDS, conductivity, Dissoved Oxygen levels etc, etc. And so I begin reading,studying in hopes of becoming enlightened. Often times, I only succeed in convincing myself that this or that variable is in play only to be surprised whith a batch of unexpected fry.
I believe that afore mentioned variables along with many others can affect embryo development,numbers of male vs.female fry, numbers of fry,growth rates,and survival rates but it all seems to fall together at times and that's what has kept me in the hobby since I was a child.
I try to follow basic pricipals (ie) keep fish that do well with the water I have, and keep the water clean along with variety of foods.
Am just now getting my feet wet in the planted tank realm other than growing plants in pots while keeping large cichlids, and am thankful for the help and interesting discussions/threads I have found here and elsewhere also.
I will say that I would expect cover along with microfauna/infusoria in planted tanks to increase the odds of fry survival with most species assuming predation can be eliminated.
I am very pleased with the plants thus far, but the fishes seem to be even more thrilled than they were with the tanks thick with megasas plasticus, or the occasional potted plant.

 

[Tom Barr]

I do not think anyone can or really is arguing that bare bottom tanks are much preferred if Breeding alone is the goal.

However, for planted tanks, there's some elements that are traded off here, I just am questioning whether some have gone so far to the plant and scape side, they loss the ability to care and focus on fish to a relatively high degree.
In other words, there is an aesthetic balance between a decent scape and the fish.

I have seen plenty of nice aquascapes and hardly...........if any........fish.........
Then those I have seen are known to be extremely tolerant of CO2.

And yet aquarist, those of us who keep fish can often think/believe these same people know as much about scaping as fish.
I wonder about that strongly.

I have met many aquarist, some really caring good folks........who want to balance this and really care about the fish, but they simply do not know how to go about it.
Like scaping, it takes time and experience to get good with fish as well as plants.
Others simply do not talk or discuss all the fish they have killed.........and they show off nice empty scapes very often.
Amano has done this, so ............he admits to it also.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[nipat]

I did it like AC too, putting eggs in the net near outflow pipe. The current will help
prevent mould. But I moved it to another small container with an air stone after hatching.
I fed them crushed regular Hikari Sinking Wafer.

With small container, when changing water, I found that too much oxygenated water
caused bubble in the fries. The "too much oxygenated water" I mean when you
prepare water, don't pour it into a bucket too strongly. You should do it gently; from the
tap to the bucket, from the bucket to the fry container. And let the air stone do the job.

If the fries are very varied in size. The big ones tend to bully the smaller, intentionally or not.
Especially in small bare bottom space. So more hiding space helps.

Or just let the fries be sucked into the filter. And collect them afterwards.
The ones in my picture were just collected from the (canister) filter.
Since I haven't tried to breed them anymore. I can check their sizes through
the transparent green filter wall. A sump should be even better and easier.
Natural food for Cory fries is abundant there.

As I'm typing, the female is laying an egg to the glass!
They are just Sterbai, not Pulcher "hi fin". I'm worried how
LFS will treat them. But that's life.

 

[Ekrindul]

I'm not so sure we can say that breeding is a sign of good health, necessarily. After all, breeding behaviors in the wild are triggered by so many various factors that are difficult to recreate in a home aquarium. Especially among planted tank keepers, who strive for very stable environments. Many fish are driven to breed by seasonal changes--changes in light levels; temperature; increased rainfall and it's effect on water chemistry; water depth increases leading to larger food supplies, hiding places; changes in diet, etc. If we systematically went about trying to create these conditions on an annual basis within our aquariums, wouldn't we see an increase in breeding?

Are the fish less healthy, though, by remaining in a more stabilized environment? Could it be that in the long run, breeding our own stock is wiser due to the prevalence of disease (TB for example) found among commercially available fish. In a population renewed solely through breeding, the diseased members (or those weaker members more prone to disease) would eventually be culled out.

 

[Tom Barr]

So what is a sign of good fish health?
How would you measure it?

DOA's?

How would you measure a good grower of aquatic plants?

Production is production, whether it is livestock or crops the way I look at it.
I care about the livestock more.........but I also do care about the crops/hate weeds etc.........

I do agree there are seasonal changes for fish............but...........the same is also very very true for aquatic plants.
Few consider their phenology over an entire 1-2 years season.

Luxury uptake is related to this same thing. In natural systems, it's not luxury uptake, there just might not be much nutrients later on in the season for flowering etc.
Same with fish, we feed them more than they need to survive as well.

If we feed them well year round etc, they will often breed and keep breeding.
Same with livestock. In natural systems, food supply can be highly stochastic/variable.
Same for water levels and water quality.

We have complete control however in our systems, more than a farmer might.
If I can breed lots of high grade livestock, lots of high grade crops, reduce labor, inputs...........while having "the farm" look nice from a design standpoint, tidy, clean, good interior placement etc......quiet.......and profitable, these are goals many aquarist would like to have.
Some say "forget it, I'll never make it."

But I think more can than they give themselves credit for.
This includes the folks who are good scapers but lousy fish keepers, and vice versa.




Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[SuperColey1]

At the risk of becoming the unwanted on all the scaping forums it would seem to me that those who select fish for a short term scape, then return them when the scape is broken down to replace with different fish for the next scape aren't relly into their fish!!!

I would suggest those guys are plants first and the fish are decoration, a second thought, a compliment to their design.

Thats not to say its wrong, just that I am the opposite as I carry MY fish from scape to scape. The scape is built for them rather than them being an added 'accent' to the scape.

I always make sure that although my scapes may look very full and huge plantmass they are a sort of illusion in that the scape itself is more like a 'terraced shop front' where what you see is the plant mass yet underneath the hardscape leaves huge amounts of substrate hidden behind for the fish to enjoy life

As for the simulation of natural habitat, that is impossible to accuracy within our budgets however a lot can be done. I have staggered lighting simulating sun rising from the left and setting on the right. the fish seem to use this for breeding. They do their touchy feely' flirting in the last half hour in the last remaining light on the right and the minute the light comes on on the left next day.....bang spawn time.

Its not from normal daylight as my photoperiod is 2-11pm. they run with the photoperiod rather than the actual daylight outside.

Also the weekly 50% water cahnge lowers the level for half an hour, lowers the temperature too. This induces behaviour and if I want a spawn then I leave the heater off for another 4 days and chuck in some bloodworm. Never fails. this simulates the sort of drain, rainfall, extra food etc

I also know of many Cory breeders who won't use bare bottomed tanks because of the bacteria threat on the bottom. they use them for none bottom feeders though. They suggest a very fine layer of sand just to eliminate that 'slime bacteria' that gathers on bare glass.

AC

 

[1077]

I very much like the look of a well scaped planted tank and appreciate the effort but to me,,the tank is not nearly as pleasing as one with more than the usual dozen cardinal tetra's,rasboras,etc.
Truly the tanks are beautiful but with no, or few fish, well,,,I lose interest quickly just looking at plants .
Perhaps aquascaping and plant growth is a passion for some, and I can appreciate that but it seems that as Tom and others have sometimes suggested ,,, at times fish often appear to be an after thought.(sad)
I am, and always will be, much more interested in fishes and their care/needs ,and planted tanks in my mind can only enhance the fishes enviornment. I therefor have been trying to learn how best to provide for the plants to enhance the enviornment of the fishes without killing either in the process.

 

[Singtoh]

Hello SuperColey1 and Nipat,

Thanks for more advice, I will try the Tea Tree oil as you suggest. At the moment nothing is breeding for some reason. Maybe after a few water changes they will begin again. Maybe that metal strip that I removed, which I think is lead, has something to do with it, can't be sure on that, only speculation, but over the past months that is the only thing that I have changed. Again, thanks for the advice and I hope that I can get some Albino Cory eggs to hatch out, they really are cute little buggers.

Cheers,

Singtoh

 

[1077]

Have heard that some who breed cory's believe placing or keeping the young fry in shallower water is helpful.
Makes it easier for very young fish to dash up to the surface than in deeper tanks.
Could not say I have tried it ,for the eggs are always eaten by the other cory's quick as they are found.
I did once have a spawn hatch from some Panda cory's by accident and placed the fry in a ten gallon tank with some Java Moss (infusoria) but they began to expire within a couple weeks.
Not sure what I did wrong if anything, but,,, I noticed that some of the fry were getting tangled up in the moss and perhaps they could not reach the surface ?
I removed the moss and perhaps a dozen out of twenty made it to the two month mark before I traded them to local fish store for some Keyhole cichlids.