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Help with 90 gallon set up.

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by yashaswibs, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    Hello everyone,
    I am trying to take a stab at heavily planted 90 gallon aquarium with eventually Discus fish in it.
    The set up is as follows
    Filtration - Fluval Fx5.
    Substrate- aquariumplants.com substrate
    Light - 4*54 watt t5 HO.
    CO2- none for now. Hoping to avoid. Will add flourish excel in a few days.
    Plants- Micro sword, dwarf chain sword, Bleheri Sword, Crypotcoryone, Ludwidgia, and the red one in corner which I have failed to identify although it looks quite common.

    The problem- the set up is about 10 days old. There are no fishes yet but the plants are deteriorating instead of flourishing. Some of the leave are decomposing while no new leaves have formed.
    I have proceeded with liquid water column fertilization per the recommended dosage on the back of the bottle- it was Hagen's fert, but am I doing something wrong. Do I not have enough organic matter to jump start the system. Should I add fishes and hope that they will adequately fertilize the system. Should I add some soil or just spend some more money and add Eco-complete?
    Help is throughly appreciated.
    I tried uploading the pics but the file size appears to be 900kb while the accepted size is below 300. Sorry about that.
    I did test the water and there is no ammonia, ph of water is very acidic at about 6( the kit stops measuring below 6.2). There was the smallest amount of nitrite.
     
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    CO2, CO2 and CO2................

    That's why.

    Lots of light, no CO2, and little if any nutrients.

    You need light, CO2 and nutrients all together to grow plants.
    I'd go with ADA aqua soil personally.
    Do EI style dosing since you have discus and will likely do large water changes anyway.

    Focus on and learn more about CO2. This will be the main issue for fish, plants and algae.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  3. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    Several more questions.

    Thanks for the prompt reply.
    If Carbon is the limiting factor then I should
    a-decrease light
    b-add pressurized CO2 system as Yeast reactor would be too small for my tank set up
    c-decrease light and add DIY yeast reactor.
    Although I would like to believe that adding CO2 pressurized is expensive it probably will not run more than couple hundred dollars but it will bring with it the need to constantly monitor the tank and fuss over it. Throw in discus fish and the fussing gets magnified. Given that my PH is 6.0 or less would not the additional CO2 decrease the ph even more and possibly with catastrophic results?

    Is there no other way to provide the organic carbon that the plants are searching for?
    If the water and air are in a state of equilibrium then the concentration of CO2 in water should also reach about 0.5% (possibly less with the surface agitation). Is that inadequate for the plants? Is there no CO2 narcosis in fishes? Would just adding a bucket load of fishes solve the CO2 problem or would they end up getting O2 starved in the night?
    Would organically enriched soil provide the carbon that is quite required by the plants and at the same time give the nutrients? If so is it just easier to put a bit of manure in the tank, then forget about adding fishes for 2-3 months till things stabilize in the water? And lastly is there any data regarding these question- a controlled trial so to speak even if the scale is small? I read a lot of in my experience and opinion but seldom find any study being quoted. Is that just how the aquarium field is progressing? ( Can't quite imagine that given that I had a couple of good marine biology professors teaching us)
    I have had these and several more questions but for a long time I did not find a remotely scientific place to begin asking these question. Thank you so much for this portal.

    Now completely off topic- where do you publish these several really good articles? I did not find any peer reviewed journals for aquatic plants production. How is the funding provided for-i.e. is there a grant from public or private sources. Would the NIH bite for such proposals? If so I would love to take a attempt it myself. Would writing a grant proposal be the same as for any biological science?
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    You are not convinced, you'll need to get your head around this one to learn more here. CO2 reduces the fussing, not increases it or makes you tend the tank move/less. Once set, it's little work. The gain is very significant.

    You do prune more, but that's what folks want to do(aquatic gardening).
    Dosing ferts is easy. Seems hard but after you do it 2-3 X it's really "old hat" thereafter.

    Like feeding fish etc.
    Not hard, little work.

    DIY takes more fussing than gas tanks, a lot less work using the gas tanks.

    Folks seem to have a real mental block about adding CO2.
    I was the same myself, and virtually everyone that uses it today was also.

    No, there's no other simple way to add CO2, but to add CO2, Excel will not do it to the same degree and will cost a lot more over time, not to mention needing it added daily. Stop trying to avoid the CO2 gas, learn about it and use it.
    Yes, face your fear. Many do everything they can to avoid it, but there's no reason to be this way. Most just do not think about it as a "fert". But in submersed water, it is really 10-40X more than any nutrient like N or P.
    Light is something rather obvious as well.

    So the CO2 gets the short end of the stick really with submersed plants. Terrestrial plants are all most folks and think about. They have plenty of CO2.

    Not so once you go under the water.

    Here's a study that shows the difference with and with out CO2 and what levels are saturating:

    Titus found 21-24X(or 2100-2400% more growth) increase in biomass with 10X ambient CO2 enrichment
    SpringerLink - Journal Article

    Enrichment of NO3 etc might only yield 100%-200% if it's severely limiting.
    In the above study, the difference was only about 20% from different sediments(low nutrient and moderate nutrient).

    Not much.

    CO2, CO2 and CO2.........

    More growth that's nice and healthy, algae free etc, then you garden.
    Gardening and having a nice plant tank is what folks want, if they have to do a lot of fiddling, they tend not to like it. So low light, good CO2, and moderate dosing/water changes make it easiest given the criteria you are suggesting, or your goal/s.

    There is virtually no $ for basic aquatic plant horticulture.
    Ole and myself mentioned this when he was here a couple of years ago, Troels as well. I work with Aquatic weeds and basically look at ways to kill them, not grow them. I work with aquatic sediment propagules(Hydrilla tubers).
    Submersed plants are NOT an agriculture crop. Some like Rice, Taro, Water spinach etc are, but these all have emergent leaves, so CO2 is not an issue.

    So you have to find different areas, marine biology is a very different field than aquatic wetland plants, and within wetland plants, submersed plants are even another level below that.

    Even my major professor and I strongly disagree on CO2.
    I CAN SUPPORT my contentions however.

    He's welcomed to show me why I have 2000X more growth that's algae free where his chambers are covered. Some think it's all N and P.

    But demonstrated results over a wide range of comparative plant species( I've cultured maybe 300-400 species now over 20 years) shows a very different picture. We can hock in 50ppm of NO3, 5 ppm of PO4 etc vs 5ppm and .5ppm and not get anything other than algae at higher light.

    Adding CO2?
    Then we get growth.

    Here's a simple google scholar search:

    Carbon metabolism Nitrogen plant growth - Google Scholar

    Plenty to show the interdependence of C and N.
    In general, you limit C, then you limit N and vice versa.

    Plant simply does not need.use as much N if it's limited by CO2.
    Also, see Liebig's law of the minimum. It explains a lot in terms of growth, but you need to add light and CO2, not just nutrients for aquarium plants.

    Then apply it.

    Here's a good article on light and CO2 for 3 aquatic weeds:
    http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/58/6/761.pdf

    Read this one carefully.
    You'll see that at 500-700 micromol of light(pretty damn high for us), aquatic plants are saturated.

    Also, you will see that at .5-7mM of CO2, they are saturated for free CO2.
    Some can use HCO3, but prefer CO2 in all cases.

    To convert from Moles to ppm's of CO2, 4.4 X10^4.
    So about 22 to 30ppm of CO2.
    40-50ppm is likely the upper ranges for other species, these are aggressive weeds so their stauration and compensation points, Km's will be lower.
    To go from ppm's of CO2 to Moles, 2.273 x 10-^3.

    Full sun is about 2000 micrmoles of light.
    High light aquariums might have 200-400, moderate about 75-150, low 40-70, very low, under 40.

    I shoot for about 50 at the tops of the foreground plants.
    It varies throughout the tank and the plant's heights/change through time etc.

    I have about 30 articles that are available to subscribers with references for each article. Sort of a review article for each topic in context of the hobby.

    There's a huge difference between simple, test hobbyist can do to show something, dispel a myth etc,m vs doing a funded research academic review. Few have the time, care enough, the resources, the background and are involved in a career that allows for that to do be done.

    But......... we can still test hypothesis though.
    If someone says excess PO4 = algae, pick some ppm of PO4, say 1ppm, and we add that amount and 2, 5ppm etc, and do not get algae, and many folks do not, repeated several times etc, then we must reject the hypothesis. So why do some folks see correlation between P and algae while others do not?

    It's likely not P, rather some other factor or dependence.
    So the tank's where we do not see algae, are considered independent of these other factors. So they serve as a control in some sense.

    Most aquarist are really bad at controls and keeping things stable.
    this is more true with CO2 than any other factor.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi yashaswibs,

    As a practical matter, I would suggest a new option:

    d. decrease light and add pressurized c02

    Light is what drives plant growth and the need for all nutrients including carbon. The more light, the more need.

    If you can hang/suspend your fixture so you get a good spread of light and can be lowered/raised as desired, it will help you a lot.

    OR

    maybe remove 1-2 bulbs, but leave yourself a good spread, that will also help. You can always add more light, is harder to reduce it......

    A pressurized c02 system can be had via a used tank on e-bay or a welding supply shop, and a good regulator/valve/guage setup can be had the same way if $ are an issue.

    The lowering of the ph by the addition of c02 is a non-issue. My ph ranges from 6-5 to 5.2 during the day from c02 injection and no fish (300 cardinals) appear to be suffering. Many other folk also have wide ph ranges with many species of fish with no issues.

    The biggest issue with c02 is providing a method that will supply sufficient AND stable amounts. DIY c02 will be difficult to provide either for a 90 gal.

    There are many ways to diffuse c02 into water:

    a reactor can be purchased or DIY

    http://www.barrreport.com/articles/3444-dual-venturi-diy-external-co2-reactor.html?highlight=reactor

    a diffusor disc (or two) can also be used

    a needle wheel powerhead

    http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/5809-needle-wheel-diy-modifications.html?highlight=diffusor+disc

    a venturi

    etc, etc.

    http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/5851-co2-injection-methods-pros-cons.html?highlight=needle+wheel

    Take a look at the threads in the c02 section and get an idea of what is out there.

    Also, good current and flow is also needed in the planted tank to wash away detritus and supply new nutrients to all plant leaves/stems.

    You may want to think about a powerhead like the Hydor Koralia or similar to help push water when the c02 is on.

    Put the c02 on an electric timer to come on say 60 min PRIOR to lights on and turn off the c02 about 30 mins PRIOR to lights off.

    Getting/adjusting the c02 to be sufficient and stable FOR YOUR TANK will take the most time.

    Read the EI sticky article about macros and micros and see if that works for you.

    http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/3205-fertilizer-routines-one.html

    and a good place to get the dry ferts:

    Welcome to Planted Aquarium Fertilizer

    Hope this helps.
     
  6. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    Thank you for excellent replies.

    Tom- I went through your links and the bottom line appears to be that CO2 system is quite required and is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for my planted aquarium. It was interesting to note that there is no money in aquatic plant research. That is unfortunate. It would have been a fabulous addition to my resume, even if it meant that I would have to utilize my money for the research. The optimum CO2 appears to be the canister with valve which would feed into the aquarium with the diffuser at the end of it. I would of course continue with the fertilizer dosing with both substrate and water column dosing.
    I went through the papers that you had suggest. Very interesting subject and mostly dealing with the plants utilizing air water interface. I noted that the plants appear to have maximum photosynthesis at early morning time( not even the time of brightest sunlight) Liebig’s law eventually has given rise to the concept of rate limiting step which very evident in several organic cycles like Kreb’s cycle. But for that to be applied I have to first be assured that the rate limiting step here is CO2. I understand that if it is not today it will be in a few days.
    p.s.- one of the papers is 1976, is that knowledge really current?
    Please do not take offense to the last statement. I live in a field where the latest paper is old by the time it hits the press.

    Gerry- Thank you for being quite down to earth about this topic. Now I will decrease the bulbs and would like to add a pressurized CO2 system. I would like to steer away from DIY as it would look like diy in my living room. I went through the links that have been provided and have a better understanding of the subject but you have politely declined to mention which diffusion system/reactor-injection method would be your choice. I would love to hear your views on it. I have a pretty powerful canister filter which does provide a lot of water circulation - about 900gph. I would prefer buying something from my LFS vs online ordering but I would much rather do online vs DIY. For Fertilizers I was hoping to use the Seachem line- what are your views on them.

    Again I thank both of you for an in depth and well thought out reply to my problem.
     
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, welcome to mix:)
    You have figured it out a lot sooner and with much less of self induced hard headedness (I'm quite the master) than many of us.

    There's money, but it's in the context of aquatic Weed research, there's the Aquatic Plant Management Society(APMS). I'll be at the meeting this July presenting my research.

    For general stuff, not much however. Still, you can learn a lot from weed management in the aquatic plant context.
    Bowes has done his entire career mostly on Hydrilla, same for Haller, two of the smarter folks I know in the aquatic botany field. While it's an oldie, it's a goodie.

    Bowes is excellent on the topic of O2 and CO2.
    If there was something nice ans recent, that's be great, but I'm not aware of anything, Troels and Ole have a few goodies here and there, Tom Madsen, Nina Cedergreen etc, but very few in the USA do much with elevated enriched CO2 on submersed aquatic plants. Why? It mostly only applied to aquarist, this is a tiny market. So it's not a question of finding a 2006-2009 article, it's just there are not articles!

    In the plant molecular field, you can find many articles on generla plant physiology etc, but little on submersed plants, and if so, mostly on the weeds and the bicarbonate (CO2 and HCO3, not just enriched levels of CO2).

    They still teach at UF. Been around, Bowes discovered and showed Photorespiration (Rubisco had O2 activity as well as a CO2 activity). Haller is about as well known as you can get with aquatic weed management. Anderson is my prof here in CA and is about as well know in CA as anyone could be. All of these folks have left a profound effect on me. Perhaps less than perhaps they'd liked:)

    Water column + sediment makes the most sense from the plant's demand perspective, from our lazy feeble minded forgetful ways, and they act synergistically in you forget one, the sediment acts as a back up, and adding water column extends the life and reduces any need for inter plant organ transport.

    So horticularally, it's the best solution.
    Same for low light(say 50 micromols at the gravel sediment surface and good even spread) + enriched CO2 to 30-40ppm. Decent good current, regular pruning to maintain relative similar biomass and similar flow patterns(see Prandtl boundary layers, plenty on this subject in aquatic ecosystems of all types).

    Some Effects of Low-velocity Currents on the Metabolism of Aquatic Macrophytes -- WESTLAKE 18 (2): 187 -- Journal of Experimental Botany

    So good current helps spread the CO2.
    Also, I have a nutty theory about the CO2 mist.
    The phase of Gas transfers much faster than compared to liquid, so atomizing an d sending CO2 microbubbles to break up the boundary layer and to add the gas phase vs CO2[aq] will increase the rates of growth and easily attain the CO2 saturation point for most any plant very rapidly and easily.

    Now.......I can not prove it is the gas phase vs the [aq] phase. No way to label that and distingush between the phases that a plant might take up. I can use N2 gas vs CO2 mist to see how the microbubbles influence the boundary layer with a control using only CO2 [aq] and then measure O2 evolution or do dry weights over time.

    Most can see a dramatic difference using mist, about 20-40% increase in the growth and pearling and very little algae(sticky fine mist bubbles might pull the algae off).

    regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I'm not Gerry,

    But SeaChem's line is mostly water with a tiny bit of ferts in them.
    Their PO4 is directly related to my experimenting about 12 years ago.
    Greg Morin is a friend of mine, nice folks.

    I would suggest buying from aquarium fertilizers.com

    Buy 4lbs or so of KNO3.
    1 lb or so of KH2PO4
    1lb CMS+B
    GH booster

    You can still buy the Seachem Excel, cost you a fair amount though for a larger tank. For a CO2 method, well, you can go several ways here.
    Each method has some sort of trade off.

    Several of these methods and modifications I've brought to the table and gotten folks to see their utility.

    The latest one is just a needle wheel modification from the Reef side. Prior, there was mazzei venturi valves, and venturi loops added to various reactor configurations.

    Needlw wheel is pretty easy, simple, adds CO2 mist very effectively with a small pump. A pair of wire snips, a Rio 600-100 range pump and feed the CO2 into the suction side of the pump and direct through the tank. Splice the impeller into 3 sections with 2 cuts and bend apart. So a 5 blade is now a 15 blade impeller.

    You will get a much faster response time using mist vs trying to get the dissolved aq levels up. In a 1600 gallon, this takes about 45 min, not bad for a massive amount of water and that's the aq levels. The gas phase is if anything, higher.

    I like T5 lighting the most, T8's are good for the DIY person also.
    Eventually these will give way to LED/LCD's.
    But not for a few years I think.

    I'd suggest buying the best damn CO2 reg and needle valve you can and get the largest gas tank(say 20lbs) if you fit it somewhere. Buy two tanks eventually to have a spare on hand.

    I believe strongly in redundant systems, much like an airplane engineer.
    Most of my tanks are set up that way. I like to try each method, not just one that I happen to be successful with, as is the case for many.

    Each method has merits, but there are successful examples of each, so it's not so much that a method or equipment fails as much as it's us, it's our fault. So to look at that fairly, you have to try really well and spend the time to tweak things to get it to work.

    At the end, you know and understand it pretty good and can apply what you learned on other systems, methods.

    Not the easiest path mind you, most will not do that:eek:
    I'm a bit too curious not too however.

    As you are a subscriber, check out the articles, they are in the BarrReport newsletters, start way back with the first and work your way through them step by step.

    Maybe 300-400 pages of reading.
    It'll take you awhile.

    Ask a specific thread for CO2 reg and equipment you should buy.
    Focus there.
    T5 lighting is nice.
    AM 1000 reactor is available through the LFS also if you choose that vs the needle wheel and there's a CO2 mist degas option for that.

    This is all likely what you wanna hear but also sensory overload.

    Be patient with yourself!!!!!!!!

    Takes time to figure this out.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  9. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    I'm not Tom, :D

    but I agree with all that he said LOL

    The Seachem products are expensive and no better than the dry ferts.

    I would use the link I provided and Tom mentioned to get some dry ferts. EZ to mix with water and dump in the tank. You can mix daily or 3x per week. Up to you.

    A nutrient rich substrate would also work well and provide additional resources for the plants and a backup in case you water column dosing is sub par......These can be purchased or DIY...

    A needle wheel powerhead, or a MODIFIED powerhead to be like a needle wheel would work well for you, and is the link provided.

    The AM1000 reactor Tom mentioned or a DIY (link provided) would also work for your size tank....

    Again, a reactor can be powered by a powerhead or your canister, but I would opt for the separate pump to drive it.......

    I would let your filter just filter and get the powerhead for c02 diffusion and some extra flow/current. You may want a second filter for the Discus as they are big fish and can produce a good amount of waste.

    You can never really over filter IMO......

    Purchasing over the web should not be an issue. Ask around where folks buy, we usually use the same places....

    I start out buying some small thing and if that works well, get a bigger order.

    Hope this helps.
     
  10. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    Wow!
    Now those are replies!!
    I would need some time to look through the information package that was delivered to me through these replies.
    I was going through the different ways of delivering co2 with the canister tank and different diffusion methods (did you know that there must be atleast 20 different methods of doing both of these).
    Information- more you know, more you need to know. I did just order Diana Walsted book on Ecology of planted aquarium to check her touted non CO2 method with soil (don't roll your eyes just yet guys- I realize that with the amount of plants I have there is no way non CO2 method will work. It just is not natural to have so many plants in small square footage).
    Ebay is probably where I would end up for a Milwaukee dual solenoid some thing some thing Co2 regulator with bubble counter. For a diffuser there is a AM500 or 1000 on aquariumplants.com. They also have a complete kit for 400$. Not small change... they keep telling me that this is a deal of a lifetime.
    Will keep you updated on my journey of heavily planted aquarium.
    p.s- I just started seeing green filamentous algae growing on several of my plant leaves. I wonder if I went a little trigger happy with my fertilizers without providing adequate CO2.
    Again thank you for your continuing help
    Yashaswi Belvadi.
     
  11. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    I would rather you spend your money on the Sumo or Rex Grigg regulator setups...... Many folk including myself find the milwaukee setup to need a lot of fiddling and adjustment.

    If you are going to go pressurized c02, then spend the money on the regulator and needle valve.

    As you pointed out (and I DID know) there are MANY methods to diffuse c02.....

    Save the money from the AM1000 on a DIY PCV reactor for about $10-20.

    EZ to make. Power it with a 300-500 gph pump and you are set. Add a ball valve so you can adjust the flow into the reactor........

    Make yourself a bypass for any unused flow and direct it back to the tank, or merge it back with the reactor output and then back to the tank.

    Please note that dosing of ferts in a planted tank DOES NOT BY ITSELF cause algae.

    Your high light and no c02 is the major issue right now............

    Water changes add c02 so you now have UNSTABLE c02 levels. This is the cause of the algae, not the ferts.

    Tom and others have clearly shown that the dosing of ferts (even if 2-5x the N or P) recommended EI do not have detrimental effects on fish or shrimp.

    Take some time to read, lower your light, dose the dry ferts per EI, and investigate your c02 options.

    Hope this helps.
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think you will find I am the most supportive of non CO2 folks that uses CO2.
    It's more a question of the goal you have and the general direction/trade offs.

    You can have a pretty dense planted non CO2 tank, quite nice in fact.
    Here's a long term example using the method I've outlined in the articles section:

    [​IMG]

    And

    [​IMG]

    And I decided to do a nice nano, which is a rather tough tank to deal with if the growth rates are high, so non CO2 is ideal for nano aquariums:

    [​IMG]
    Tank is 2 liters, not much!

    All these tanks are better looking than most non CO2 tanks you might typically see.

    CO2 has a few trade offs, but so does Excel, and so does non CO2 methods.
    Soil has trade offs, as does ADA aqua soil, as does flourite, SMS and plain sand.
    Knowing what those trade offs are helps the person make a better decision to further meet their goal/s.

    If you do not have experience with non CO2, or vice versa, I think it's difficult for someone to offer fair advice either direction. You will see me suggest both methods therefore if someone has 2 or more aquariums so they are better suited to help a wider range of planted aquarist.

    CO2 is a bit like a drug. It's why the hobby advanced and has really taken off in the last 25 years, like skimmers, Kalk/limewater and supplements, Refugiums and high light for reefs.

    Folks have just never really gotten into non CO2 planted tanks that much versus CO2. It comes with a price however. I'll gladly help anyone whichever direction they chose, but it's not place to influence you, it's your goal, not mine ;)

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  13. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    Continuing the journey.

    Hi Guys,
    The last conversation I had was about 2 months ago when I went on to study more about CO2 injection methods. I have knocked at most doors.
    Excel only method- seemed to work and maintained the plants, did not allow great growth in any plant but no death, almost a static view.
    Excel+DIY co2- never did get the yeast mixture sorted out completely, I either added too much sugar and ended up with a little mixture in the tank or too much Baking soda and got small amounts of CO2. Once I got enough co2 out of the DIY mixture but it lasted for 3-4 days. So I added a second bottle (a buck extra investment :) ). It lasted fine for about 3 weeks then petered out. Redoing the whole mixture and restarting it did take some effort, especially to get it right.
    In the mean time quite a bit of algae seemed to have gotten hold of at least 20% of my leaves, especially the slow growing ones.
    The leaves are either yellow or translucent. So now I have algae feeding on my excess nutrients, leaves showing signs of deficiency.
    Now I am ready to take all your recommendations- I have ordered for preassurised CO2 system & dry ferts.
    Interestingly enough right after my water changes my discus seemed to have respiratory difficulty with them trying to suck air at the surface of water, at the same time my plants were all pearling. I aerated the water for about 3-4 hours and they slowly settled down?!!.

    The right side of aquarium has grown well and has the outlet pump of diy co2, while the other side is having more algae growth on its leaves, I needed to weed out several plants too. If I increase the circulation the Discus hides in the folds of plants and the investment becomes useless, on the other hand this is what happens with present state of affairs. Will probably split the CO2 outlet.
    Will continue with updates.
     
  14. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    Discus spawned

    Today morning I found a discus couple guarding some eggs. Very few were white, most were slightly gray. Now I need to isolate them. Wonder what EI and CO2 does to this scenario? Hopefully the parents will not eat them.
    Will keep you updated.
     
  15. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Congratulations

    Not much, EI and CO2 obviously haven't gotten in the way of nature. Breeding is a pretty strong indicator of generally good conditions.;)

    As long as the other critters in your tank are reasonably compatible, you may well find that Mom and Dad Discus are pretty well able to handle the situation on their own. Though first time parents can be unpredictable. The less you mess with them generally the better.

    Biollante
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    This tank has had breeding Discus for several years now, and the Angels?
    Those fish you see here have never seen or known any other aquarium, they are all F1's raised in this tank with CO2/EI type dosing.

    [​IMG]

    CRS are even more sensitive, yet they also breed well also.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    Unfortunately, I read this mail a little late. I had already meddled with the pair by putting a barrier between them and the rest of the tank. That was quite flimsy and some of the fished did get on the barricaded side.
    The eggs are all gone, must have been eaten.
    I am not sure if I should isolate the pair or leave them in this tank.
    Help appreciated.
    There are also some plants which have been uprooted and I need to replant them and move them around but am not comfortable putting my hands in now.
    I am surprised this pair went for it- they are quite young.
     
  18. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    What is CRS?
     
  19. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    CRS=Cherry Red Shrimp

    Young cichlid parents have a tendency to eat their first couple of broods so it is not your fault.

    Did you see the spawning? Are you sure you have a pair? Congrats anyway as it does show good overall conditions.

    It is easier if the parents are alone (IMO) in a separate tank but if they can stay in the display tank, I would give it a shot.

    Why are you concerned about your hands in the water? The eggs are gone and the parents will usually need 2-4 weeks to spawn again. Replant as necessary. Better to do it now before they pick a new spawning site.
     
  20. yashaswibs

    yashaswibs Prolific Poster

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    Thanks Gerry.
    I did not see them spawn, what I did see was a couple of discus fish hanging around together with about 30-40 eggs deposited on driftwood. The couple were turning dark and stayed by the "eggs". At least one fish staying by the side. There were some eggs which had become darker, and some which were stark white (so some might have been
    fertilized- I might be shooting in the dark here).
    The couple are not hanging around that much any more. They still stay around a bit but not nearly as much- so even if I wanted to remove the couple I might have trouble identifying them- There are 3 snake skins and one blue turq. The couple is snake skin. I don't want to transport the wrong ones.
    In the mean time there are some more white small round egg like stuff on another driftwood.
    i did just buy a 30 gallon tank to transfer the couple to- it will be bare bottom tank for now I think.
    I would love to believe that I am changing the water as much as possible but the truth is it used to once in 10 days or so. I guess the trick was using the plants as water purifier.
    I think they spawned because I have really soft and acidic water from tap.
    This is not really planning. If is the only 2nd time I have kept discus fish so help both for plants and fishes will be helpful.
    Thanks
    Yashaswi.
     
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