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Help verifying a PP dip formula

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by pat w, Jul 30, 2010.

  1. pat w

    pat w Member

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    I need to dip my plants and hard scape in an attempt to get back to a good starting point on battling a thread algae infestation that is relentless. I found a formula for the potassium permanganate dip on APC (TexGal) which calls for 1 gram to 10 liters of water to make a 100PPM solution. Is this correct? Is it strong enough?

    I know most folks just add enough to a half a bucket of water to make the water turn dark pink (how dark is dark?:confused:) but I want to be as frugal as I can (I'm only getting 4 oz).:gw

    Pat
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    PP

    Hi Pat,

    Four ounces of Potassium permanganate should be about a lifetime or two’s worth. :)

    100-ppm Potassium permanganate is a little strong but not bad.

    Remember that if you cover the PP after use you can continue to reuse the solution until it turns yellow or even muddy brown. You can also use PP directly in the tank. Observing the coloration tells you the effectiveness and required dosing.

    I wrote about this somewhere around here somewhere. :gw

    Biollante
     
  3. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Won't that kill the bugs in my biofilter, or can I just disconnect it during treatment? If so how do I neutralize the PP before I reconnect?

    Pat
     
  4. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Pleasantly Pink

    Hi Pat,

    The same stuff you use to de-chlorinate the water will also neutralize PP. However you should not need to use any de-clorinator.

    As the Earth cooled, before the knowledge of water changes Potassium permanganate (KMnO4) is the way we removed the organics from the water. Many pond keepers even unto this day use this process since major water changes may be prohibitive or even impossible. :gw

    The PP treatment is explained at http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa027. I have found the PP treatments at these levels safe for my critters down to CRS shrimp; it will harm populations of smaller invertebrates, though my copepod and rotifer populations seem to rebound nicely.

    If you wish to clean the filter and associated plumbing, simply remove the biologic material to a pail of aquarium water and return the materials after the process is completed.

    I still recommend that you experiment first with a couple of your critters prior to treatment in the main tank. If you have never done this before be extra vigilant, err on the low side in concentrations. Should you notice any adverse reaction or just find yourself pooping uncontrollably, add whatever de-chlorinator you use at the proscribed rate.

    One of the reasons I like the Potassium permanganate method is that it is also a good indicator of water quality.

    80-USgallon tank.

    • We need 2mg/l of PP so:
    • Grams of PP=80-gallon*0.0038*2mg/l=0.6-g PP
    • (if you have a scale accurate enough and are using lab grade Potassium permanganate, feel free to measure out 0.61 or 0.608 g of PP).
    • Dissolve the PP into a liter of aquarium water, and then pour the solution along the length into the aquarium. Note the time or set an alarm for four hours.

    The aquarium water should turn a pleasant pink or even light purple (were it not for the profanity laced replies from the Plant Guru Team, I would tell you the approximate ORP values the different colors represent).

    Light purple means your water quality is excellent and you can even use a little less PP the next time. Pink is also an indicator of good water quality and that the dosing is correct. Yellowish tint through mud brown indicates poor water quality and the quicker and darker it got the worse the water quality.
    If your aquarium got into the yellow to dark browns in less than four hours, add another 2mg/l dose that is another 0.6 grams of PP. Continue the process until you make it four hours in the pink. :cool:

    Biollante
     
  5. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Thanks, Bio

    Pat
     
  6. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Terrorist are just messing it up for everybody ...

    Walgreen's source doesn't dispence PP anymore.:(


    I had to go to Ebay. Gulfcoast Distributers, 0.5 lb for $12.49 delivered.:cool:

    Pat
     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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  8. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Dose up on Ca prior to the treatment .. ?

    I was bored and googled for some more info on the treatment and found this abstract.
    {edit; Link: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V73-4HC76XJ-2&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1420642723&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=21f6da97fa3a26e5c32ad627e2d940ad}
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The mechanisms of potassium permanganate on algae removal

    References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

    Jen-Jeng Chena and Hsuan-Hsien Yehb, ,

    aDepartment of Environmental Engineering and Science, Tajen University, Pingtung 907, Taiwan

    bDepartment of Environmental Engineering, National Cheng Kung University, Tainan 70101, Taiwan

    Received 11 February 2005; revised 1 August 2005; accepted 12 August 2005. Available online 19 October 2005.

    Abstract
    The effect of potassium permanganate as preoxidant for algae-laden source water and the mechanism that it causes algae cells aggregation was investigated. Synthetic algae suspensions, prepared from lab-cultured Chodatella sp., were used for batch preoxidation and settling tests. In order to study the effect of water hardness on the function of permanganate, some algae suspensions were spiked with CaCl2 solution. Experiments with preformed MnO2 to look into its effect on algae cell aggregation were also conducted. The results show that preoxidation with potassium permanganate would promote the aggregation of algae cells, and this phenomenon was even more significant with the existence of hardness causing ion, calcium. In addition to incorporating its reducing product, MnO2, into algae floc, and increased its specific gravity, and therefore its settling velocity, permanganate may also induce the release of extracellular organic matters (EOM) from algae cell. Based on SEM observation, EOM probably enhanced the incorporation of MnO2 into algae floc. The role played by calcium ion in promoting the function of permanganate can be explained by charge neutralization and also bridging between negatively charged surfaces."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Would it help to dose up on Ca just before the treatment? If so would GHbooster do and how much?

    Also I think my inexperience brought me to a wrong ID on the infestation. I'm pretty sure now it's Rhizo.

    I've done a complete cleaning, removed every plant, followed by a full substrate vacuming and a 50% WC. Each plant was cleaned with a soft bristle toothbrush before replanting. (The HM was a real pain, the HC was too far gone {edit;and removed} long ago). I'm slowly increasing the CO2 and seem to have a fair level of flow though I'd like some more. (All the plants have some sway to them but I'm still well below the 10x mark) Right now the dosing is straight EI based on 75-80 gals. actual water est.

    Pat
     
    #8 pat w, Aug 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2010
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Low Or Fluctuating CO2

    Hi Pat,

    I tend to add Calcium anyway and though it is a contentious issue here, I like CaCl2, so whether through good observation :cool: or (more likely) dumb luck, :p that is the baseline I use.

    My general, though controversial advice is to raise the GH by at least 1-dGH with CaCl2 and another 1⁄4-dGH Epsom salts (in my case I add 20-ppm Ca, via CaCl2 and 4-ppm Mg via Epsom salt). :gw

    Honestly, I think your issues revolve around all the new tank issues. Off the top, I would say CO2 is likely your issue. I apologize, I lost track of your situation in the last month or so. I recall you had a nice tank arrangement and it seemed to me you were doing all the right things.

    Potassium permanganate at 100-ppm (you will figure out the color after a time or two) is great as a dip, 15 minutes for stout vascular plants, 7 minutes for finer vascular plants, then rinse in clean water, a little de-chlorinator in the water is a good idea. Be careful with primitive plants. Remember the solution is reusable, just cover and store away from heat, pets and kids.

    I do not routinely use Potassium permanganate in lieu of regular water changes. PP is great if you have a buildup of organics, especially in an older established tank and need to clean the plumbing or the dark recesses of the tank (I do this maybe every couple of years). It is also great for ponds or places where large water changes are not practical. PP is also good for dealing with certain outbreaks or infestations, though these usually are associated with poor water quality.

    My advice is to hang in there with regular water changes, continue cleaning the Rhizoclonium, whether Cladophoraceae or Chlorophyta. Work on CO2 and circulation issues. :)

    With the exception of the HC, your plants should not be difficult.

    I do not know if this helps or even makes sense. :eek:

    Biollante
     
  10. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Apologies not needed ...

    I'm just glad to get a slice of your time. You and everyone else here have been a big help. I'm pigheaded and don't like to lose, but without all of everyones help I probably would have thrown in the towel by now.

    But Dangit, this stuff ain't gonna beat me!:mad:

    I'm not aiming for a replacement for water changes. The outbreak was so pervasive, I just want to know its all gone and that I'm working with a clean slate. Water changes aren't hard. 50% takes me about 30-40 minutes and the majority of that is vacuuming or just watching the water level change.

    Here's a pic I found on the net that looks exactly like the stuff I'm dealing with.
    [​IMG]
    My tank wasn't that bad but it felt like it was. I did my best to get it all but it's fighting back and I'm in there with my toothbrush daily getting what I can.

    I'm trying to up my CO2 slowly but the little Rio 180 I have pushing my reactor just can't seem to keep up. If I push it too hard the recovery return to the pump from the reactor overloads the intake resulting in a kind of vapor lock. I then have to clear it to get the flow going again so I'll be replacing it soon with an 800RVT.

    I know this is what I should expect with a new tank, especially my first planted tank, learning curve and all. I just need a little advice on which way to point my nose till I break through to the other side of this storm.

    Thanks for all the help
    Pat
     
  11. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Can You Say Glutaraldehyde, Well...Neither Can I

    Hi Pat,

    Hang tough.

    That picture is rather confirmation of the low/fluctuating CO2.

    Until you get the CO2 under control and stable, I recommend using Excel at full label dosing, plus maybe a bit. ;) Consider cutting the light a bit.

    Continue to pull out, all the algae you can large water changes at least every week, twice a week better, every other day is probably obsessive but are a good idea. :gw

    I do have a shortcut, kind of a nuclear option, I have experimented with while I am not a fan of shortcuts this one is particularly effective against this sort of algae bloom. We will see how this goes first.

    Biollante
     
  12. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Change & Hope ... No political reference intended

    Well, I've noticed a change since I added the second canister filter (Odyssea CFS4) and adjusted flow patterns a few days ago. Before the stems were doing the snorkel thing, shooting straight for the surface and not sending out a single side shoot. Now they are putting out a good number of side shoots all the way down to the substrate. Also I’m seeing new growth in the HM right at the substrate and the four remaining ‘sprigs’ of Rotalla indica are showing signs they may yet survive.

    If I'm not crazy this should be telling me that they have a useable (not necessarily optimal) supply of nutrients at all levels (including CO2). Otherwise the stems and HM wouldn't be expending the energy to produce the side shoots and new growth that low... right?

    Still fighting the Rhizo, but when I go in after it the filiments seem to break up a little easier. Of course this could just be my imagination.

    Still working on CO2 and flow improvement as time and budget allows and I have yet to address the GH and KH issues we've discussed elsewhere.

    Feel free to burst my balloon if you must.

    Pat
     
  13. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Not A Doubt!

    Hi Pat,

    Actually, I think you are probably doing quite well; much of this is just new tank, new to the world of freshwater-planted tanks kind of stuff.

    It pays not to get too excited, just stay the course; the HC is really the only pain-in-the-butt plants you have. Getting your system stable for 3-6 months is the key. At this point, it really is not about fancy plants or fancy critters it is about system stability.

    This is analogous to any other form of farming or gardening, it is in fact container gardening. As my Dear Ol’ Dad used to say, “Anything that happens quickly in the garden is likely bad.”

    This is a long-term project, I think of it as a relationship. In the beginning, things are often fragile; there are unforeseen difficulties we are learning about each other. As the relationship matures, there are still problems but the day-to-day problems mean less and less become more manageable. As with most things of real value, it is patience and perseverance more than money, talent or education that succeeds. :gw

    I have little doubt you are beginning to feel the difference in the algae you are paying attention. Your eyes, nose and fingers are the best test kits you will ever own. :)

    I suspect once you get that GH/KH thing worked out things will really move along. To be precise I think your system is Calcium starved, you should see improvements within days of adding the Calcium chloride. The KH increase should provide pH stability (I am not trying to be controversial).

    Take the CO2 slowly, that is one reason I like the Excel, it lets us take the plant friendly carbon thing on directly, that is it allows to find our way while providing lots of carbon as long as you have no primitive plants. Even with primitive plants I would still [FONT=&quot]recommend[/FONT] Excel here, just reduced dosing.

    You have a Fabco needle valve this will require patience move cautiously, are going to watch the plants, we do not wish to stress the critters. :)

    The dry start gives your plants a reserve to work with while you are finding your way.

    You will succeed magnificently! :cool:

    Biollante
     
  14. pat w

    pat w Member

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    R.i.p. Hc

    Thanks, I really appriciate the help.

    BTW the HC was history a while back. It was covered in the Rhizo after it was CO2 starved and turned to dark mush. When I went in to remove the Rhizo the HC came with it and seperating them was a no go.:(

    But not to worry when I get the tank stable I'm going to get some of Tom's Starougyne repens.:D

    More when I have more.

    Pat
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    that's Rhizoclonium

    CO2, too much light etc........

    Easy to knock back a little blackout 3 days etc........

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  16. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Tom,

    Yeah ... still on the learning curve.

    Already did two blackouts but it bounced right back 'cause the CO2 was still low. I'll get the CO2 and flow right then try again.

    Just don't stop selling the Starou before then.

    Pat
     
  17. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Cheap & Easy Is What I Am

    Hi Pat,

    Seriously you are on the right track, get the water parameters right, backing off the lighting a bit would not hurt.

    Pro’s like Tom Barr can do the blackout bit and get away with it because of the experience level they bring to the game. We mere mortals need to fight our way through. ;)

    Blackouts and other shortcuts in my ever-humble-planted-pot opinion stress the system; in particular, multiple blackouts in an inherently unstable situation can push the system to a nearly unrecoverable situation. {I am not trying to be difficult or controversial.} :eek:

    I have no doubt that CO2 stability is a major problem.

    Given the lack (I would characterize it as extreme) of Calcium, I consider that your primary problem. Thankfully, it is cheap and easy to correct. :gw

    Address the carbon issue by reducing the lighting, adding Excel and carefully, gently, slowly, incrementally raising the CO2. :)

    The KH is your call; personally, I think it should be raised.

    Biollante
     
  18. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Just put an order in at Big Al's

    1 - Rio 800 RVT ......... $24.99
    1 - Koralia Evo 750 ..... $22.99
    2L - Seachem Matrix ... $17.49

    Maybe I'll be able to get the CO2 and flow issues resolved,now.

    Also got some of these off Ebay to adjust my light height.
    [​IMG]

    Later
    Pat
     
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