Help! My snails aren't happy

I know you have considered this thread closed but I have had this happen to me several times. My tank is usually a snail breeding ground but every so often I notice all my MTS stop moving and their shells start decaying. Some even die. Everytime this happens I realize that I did my 50% water change and forgot to add my baking soda and mineralization (Kents RO aduster). I'm unsure if it is a lack of minerals from the Kents or from the drop in PH from the lack of baking soda.

I've been inclined to say it is the PH. Whenever I notice the snails getting sluggish, I test the PH and find it has dropped to the 6.4-6.6 range. After adding baking soda and getting back to the 7.0 range the snails "wake up" and start breeding like the little rodents they are. Low PH seems to slowly dissolve the shells but this is my less than scientific observation.

 

I found this when I googled PH and snails. http://www.applesnail.net/content/various/snail_disease.php

shell detoriation: superficial wormholes; deep holes, loss of shell top
To have a good understanding about the causes of shell detoriation, one needs to know some basic shell anatomy [sread more about shell anatomy here]. The most important thing to remember is that the rigidity of the shell is provided by a strong, calcified inside, with a protective protein layer at the outside. It's the latter that prevents the chemical detoriation of the calcium at the inside. Once the protective outer layer is damaged, the calcium layer is exposed to the water. This shouldn't be a big problem, as long as the water is rich in calcium and is not acid, but once the pH of the water drops and the water becomes acid (pH below 7), the calciums starts to dissolve. As long as this process advances at a slow speed, the snails is often able to enforce the calcium layer, although only at the inside. The ouside of the shell is dead material, and cannot be repaired by the snail itself, so once damaged, it will stay that way. The oldest parts of the shell (the shell top) and those places that are often hot when a snail fall on the bottom are also the places that are most vulnerable as the protective outer layer is often damaged at those parts. Problems arise once the shell is detoriated that much that holes are formed, exposing the soft tissues below. In case of large holes, the snail can get problems with keeping the mantle cavity open, with lung collapse and other problems as result. Nevertheless, smaller holes an pose a problem as well, especially in a crowded tank, as other snails and fish won't hesitate to eat the exposed tissues. Luckely, snails do have some kind of repair system: they simply calcify the exposed tissues to protect them.

 

Not So Sure

Hi Florin,

“Parental guidance” :beguiled:a nicer way of saying “old gasbag,” and as a documented “old gasbag” I appreciate that.

:torn:I find the Staghorn/BBA answer to the reason the snails are unhappy, unsatisfying, then again, if the cause isn’t a parasite, say a nematode, rat lungworm, Angiostrongylus cantonensis or any number of tremetodes (round versus flat), I am not sure I can refute it either.

I have been running various water combinations to see what I get. I have been trying to duplicate your range of water and I have seen some disruption in shell development in water with high DOC and in water with a lot of fine particulate matter. These have been baby snails; I have seen no deterioration in mature snails.

The possibility of killer cyanobacteria intrigues me, though I have never seen (I confess I haven’t looked) snails killed by Cyanobacteria or any algae. I wonder how the algae became so advanced on the snails to (allegedly) cause the damage to the snail’s shells.

• I am aware that certain cyanobacterium, Anabaena, come to mind,
  
  • and is used as larvicide against mosquitoes.
    

A quick bit of research leads me to Microcystis aeruginosa, a freshwater cyanobacteria that that produce toxins and is often involved in harmful algal blooms (HAB) in eutrophic lakes.

Another bit of looking about and I find Toxic potential of microcystin-containing cyanobacterial extracts from three Romanian freshwaters, about Microcystis aeruginosa, Microcystis viridis and an unidentified aeruginosa. As you may have guessed Microcystis spp. is where we get Microcystins. So now I am thinking (always painful and generally fruitless) perhaps there is a cyanobacteria based toxin at work.:surprise:

I do not have any Microcystis aeruginosa or Microcystis viridis currently culturing (that I know of anyway). As luck would have it, I do have a couple of clean strains of aeruginosa that produce Neurotoxin(s) (Anatoxin-a, I think) that I have been culturing, so I am going to try growing some on a few snails:chargrined: as well as exposing some to my version of a HAB. I will see if I can get Microcystis aeruginosa and Microcystis viridis cultures.

I agree the “prills” are likely Nitrite snail eggs. Have you tried hatching any?

I do not understand how activated charcoal removes soluble iron. Rather than adsorption, I think better answers are going to be consumption or precipitation.
I suspect consumption of iron by plants and bacteria; I would not underestimate the role of plants (including algae) and bacteria in converting iron.

Anyway, I have a few more comments later saved up.:gw

Biollante

 

Florin,

I'm not sure if this has been asked or not, but are you running a UV sterilizer? If so, there have been a few discussions here on them possibly affecting Fe levels.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7295-Questions-UV-fertilizers-precipitation-and-bioavailability
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/9400-Does-UV-remove-Floursih-Iron?highlight=iron+uv

 

Iron Eaters or Specks on My Lower Leaves

Hi Florin,


The photograph suggests a possibility where the iron is concerned.


The first thing that pops in what passes for my brain is that parts of the tank are in low dissolved oxygen with plenty of carbon that may provide a number of borderline or even transition zones that support microaerophilic microorganisms such as iron bacteria. Perhaps Siderocapsa vulgaris, Siderococcus limoniticus, Naumanniella pygmaea or Siderocapsa anulata, (I suspect these as they are the most aerobic) particularly with added Carbon dioxide. :gw



“Microbial mats built by iron bacteria” by J Schieber and M Glamoclija, while not exactly what we are looking act gives a good and easily understood depiction and explanation of the process.


“Recognition of the Iron Bacteria “Siderocapsa” as. Arthrobacters and Description of Arthrobacter siderocapsulatus sp. nov.” by G. Dubinina and A. V. Zhdano is interesting and descriptive. Labeled 1a of Figure 1 on page 342 (page 3 of the pdf) is a wonderful look at classing microorganisms as microaerophilic.


Please indulge my old-gasbag review
{Microorganisms fall into two groups,

1. those that require oxygen, “aerobic” and
   
2. those that do not, “anaerobic.”
   

The test is rather simple; drop the little bugs in a test tube filled with liquid.
We then categorize the bugs further.

The aerobic into two more categories;

1. [*=1]microorganisms requiring oxygen are called “obligate aerobic” and gather at the top of the test tube.
   [*=1]Microorganisms requiring oxygen but at a low concentration are called microaerophilic and gather in the upper part of the test tube but not at the top.
   

The anaerobic into three more categories;

1. [*=1]those microorganisms not affected at all by oxygen are said to be “Aerotolerant” and will spread evenly throughout the test tube.
   [*=1]Microorganisms that find aerobic respiration beneficial though lack of oxygen does not hurt them are called “Facultative aerobic” and gather mostly at the top but are found throughout the test tube.
   [*=1]Microorganisms that cannot use and are harmed by oxygen are called “obligate anaerobic” and gather at the bottom of the test tube to avoid oxygen.}
   

A bit more later on recognizing iron-eating bugs.

I have a few more thoughts on the snails and another possibility or two.


Please forgive my slowness; I seem to be having a problem getting thoughts out…:chargrined:


Biollante

 

The Solution Is Iron In Solution

Hi Florin,

No offense intended but your AC isn’t that special! Activated charcoal will remove particulate iron but not iron in solution, so if something, Potassium permanganate for instance, is precipitating the iron then the AC can remove it, though just as likely it would simply fall to the substrate.



I would also note that lower grades of AC are sufficient for planted tanks, save the expensive stuff for reef systems, we are really only trying to grab the big chunks.:surprise:



Biollante

 

See Above

Hi Florin,

See above

Hopefully more later...

Biollante

 

Iron Eaters or Specks on My Lower Leaves

Hi Florin,

It seems to me there must be something in the water; I am not convinced the cyanobacteria are the cause, though I think it is an interesting (1) possibility, (2) complication or (3) symptom.


I am not a fan of routine use of activated charcoal, particularly when adding “black water extracts” and/or using peat. In your case, I think you need to continue the AC use until you know the root cause of the problem. As far as a source of cheap AC, pretty much any will work for you, I happen to like the BRS guys as it is clean, but frankly a little AC dust getting in to the tank will cause no harm, may even do a little good.


3Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP]+ KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB] +7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O --> 3Fe(OH)[SUB]3(s)[/SUB] + MnO[SUB]2(s)[/SUB] + K[SUP]+[/SUP] + 5H[SUP]+[/SUP]

Do you ever notice any cucumber, swampy, rotting vegetation smells? The cucumber smell if quite distinct.:surprise:

• Maybe a whiff of petroleum?
• These may be easier to pick out if you remove a sample from the aquarium introducing as little air as possible and
  
  • let the sample set covered (at least a couple of cm head space) 30-minutes or so, take a whiff as you remove the cover.
    
  • Look and see if you notice an oily sheen on the water, shiny perhaps even a rainbow.
    
• Do you ever notice any sticky, gooey slimy deposits?
  
  • These may be brown, grey or yellowish. T
    
  • hese deposits tend to form in and around intakes and so forth.
    
  • May be mistaken for brownish algae, but are crumbly in a slimy sort of way.
    
• Any brownish-grey or yellowish deposits on lower leaves?
  
  • These may appear to be holes, may be brushed, or possibly scraped away, sort of like odd or dead algae

[FONT=&quot]H[SUB]2[/SUB]O + Fe[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]3[/SUB] --> 2Fe(OH)[SUB]2[/SUB] + O[SUB]2[/SUB][/FONT]




[HR][/HR]
Treatment time for me, hopefully I will get back to my old gasbag-self in a day or two.


Biollante

 

Hi Florin,

Trust me, I have pics of MY tanks that would scare the color out of your pics

A few years back, a 'professional' maintaining my 180 while I was away set the light duration to 23 hours daily. I came back to a tank full of thread algae, BBA, BGA, you name it! Fish were healthy and water was clean though. Just some work to get it right again.

Anyhoo, I think we all have some skeletons in our fishie closets that we are a bit ashamed of...

Thanks for being brave and sharing!