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Help me out - BBA -

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by borman, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. borman

    borman Prolific Poster

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    Hello,

    I`m start my 85 Gal (60gal pure volume) 3 week ago. I`m started with 30 gal of water from previous tank design.
    Everything was ok, tank is started good,

    Light: I have pendant with 4 LL and 2 MH lamp its hanged 20 cm to water)
    10 Hours - 144 watt of silvanya grolux+osram 765
    + 4 Hour of MH HQI (Sylvania Aquaark 10000K 150x2)

    Temperature - now is too hot 27-28 celcius in tank

    Fish - 30 mahseer 50 shrimps

    pressurized CO - 2 from tank -through glass diffuser - 3 bps (through (medicine) dropper). Off for night turn on 2 ours before light

    After 2 week Im start dosing NPK, Micro and Fe (all thing is DIY and solution)

    NPK (1 week dose at one time)
    K - 17 mg/week
    N - 15
    P-0.63
    Mg 0.3

    Micro dayly
    Mn-0.029
    Zn- 0.006
    Mo- 0.0007
    B - 0.018
    Fe- 0.1
    Cu - 0.0014

    Everything seems ok, but 3 days ago I was attacked by BBA (IMHO)
    It attack by gigrophyla polisperma, R.macrandra, eleoharis and glosso.
    The plant is pearling but in BBA :(

    So I now I trying to get the reason. Have some assumption: and I need your advices:

    1. Due to long tank 120cm and simple glass diffuser I need to apply I huge water flow from "lilly pipe outlet" to rich the co2 mist on the opposite side of the tank and to get it not simply floating up but moving through tank perimeter .
    This flow exactly move thought above mentioned plants (except glosso)

    2. Even with this water flow th Co2 mist circulation is not good. Moreover 2 days ago my Co2 regulator begin work unstable, so I have unstable CO2 feed. (but only this 2 days)

    So I think due to this and on the background of dosing big amount of ferts. BBA became very happy.

    May be its another reason , but I need solution....
    Any suggestion are extremely welcome
    Thanks

    Larry
     
  2. shane

    shane Lifetime Charter Member
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    Do you have a CO2 drop checker w/ 4KH reference in the tank?

    Do all the plants have a little sway to them?

    Most people say BBA is a CO2 problem / circulation problem. If you don't have a DC I would get one.

    Have you tried Excel to help get rid of the BBA? Excel isn't going to fix the root of the problem but help you get rid of some of the BBA you currently have.
     
  3. ceg4048

    ceg4048 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Larry,
    Unless I'm mis-reading, for the amount of lighting your nutrient dosing seems very weak. Am I correct in assuming that for 4 hours per day you have both the 300 watts of MH and the 144 watts of T5 illuminated at the same time? If so then that is a lot of light only 8 inches from the surface.

    That would be OK if you were dosing accordingly but you are asking for trouble by only dosing 15 mg of nitrate per week. Have I misread that? Did you mean 15 mg/liter instead?

    A highly lit 85G should receive a weekly KNO3 dosage of at least 16 grams KNO3 and at least 5 grams of KH2PO4, otherwise you may soon have a lot more types of algae than BBA.

    I would stop using the MH for now until solving the problem. That would also help with the temperature issue. BBA is always a CO2 issue. It can be due to low CO2, in which case increasing the bubble rate will help, or it can be due to unstable CO2 which may be your case. With large tanks it often helps to have two diffusers, one at each end. This is more complicated but is much more effective.

    You did not mention what kind of filtration or circulation you have but this is also a critical item with that much light. I would suggest 10X the tank volume per hour of filtration and circulation rating. So you should have pumps/filters "rated" at a total of 850 gallons per hour. The pumps and powerheads won't actually deliver that much but the total rating should be as close to that as you can get.

    So if you want to use those extra 300 watts MH you should look at increasing NPK nutrient dosing, changing bubble rate and getting better circulation/flow.

    Cheers,
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Yes, agreed, CO2 CO2 and CO2.
    Also, the aquarium is a mere 3 weeks old.

    I would suggest doing 2-3 x a week 50-70% water changes and increasing the CO2(slowly!!!). Adding another pump/powerhead to move the CO2 mist from the diffuser around the tank will help also, some good water movement on the surface also can help.

    These are lessons learned through experience.

    You want good water movement on the surface, but not enough to break the surface of the water. You will lose a little CO2 (it is easy to add a little more CO2 gas to make up for this), but you gain more stability and the tank is cleaner and fish are happier with more current in general.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. shane

    shane Lifetime Charter Member
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    I am not sure if you have any fish in the tank but you can gas the fish (which can lead to fish death) if too much CO2 is in the water; so as Tom says add it slowly and watch the fish for any signs of distress.
     
  6. borman

    borman Prolific Poster

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    Thanks a lot for the answers.

    2 Shane
    Yes I have DC with DKH4 (once again DIY solution hope I was sober when made it :) )
    Its now yellow-green

    Actually as my outflow positioned as you see on the picture - all plants of the rear plan is under flow influense - esp Eleoharis. on the left side.

    I know that most say BBA from the circulation - but in my case its because of excessive flow (circulation) cause Eleiharis on the right side is not such infected with BBA

    Unfortunately its impossible to buy it in Ukraine.

    2ceg4048
    Yes 4 Hours of 300 MH and 144 but not t5 only t8 with really bad reflectors (DIY). And actually I do not know how much I lose from this 144 wt due to this and 20 cm height
    Sorry my writing fault - Of course 17 mg/l per week
    All dosing in mg/l per week (NPK+MG) I made it with Redfild ration N-P 1-25, cause I have approx 30 small viviparous fishes which I feed etc..
    According to this its equal for my tank N-6.2mg/l/day and P-2.2mg/l/day
    Of course IMHO but I think that NO3-43 mg/l/week and 15.4 mg/l/week PO4 is to high its 2.8 redfild ration :eek:

    Actually with my T8 light I think that for 3week pearling plant tank it will be low -did it?
    As you see on the picture, O made something like Tom`s DIY venture reactor/mister... Not aesthetic but additional flow+ CO2 mist. I regulate now CO2 to 3 bubbles/sec (off for night)
    Actually today check my PH - 6,8
    I have Atman CF1200 - its approx 1500 liters/hour. with haydite filling

    2 Tom
    I made it first week. and then 1 - 70%week.
    Il made last in last Saturday - and add weekly dose of NPK.. So you recommend made 50% change now 3 times per week and after each as I understand I need to add 3 day dose of NPK solution ? Also today I cut all highly infected leaves from all plants :eek: Crazy work esp with eleoharis

    You mean that during day outflow must be raised up to the surface to made surface ripple etc?

    Also should I continue dosing Micro and Fe
     

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  7. ceg4048

    ceg4048 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Larry,
    Thanks for clarifying the dosing. I thought those numbers looked strange.:rolleyes: In any case you should do yourself a favor and completely forget about the Redfield ratio. The ratio only tells us the relative content of these elements within the plant mass but is not related to what plants must uptake and use. The EI dosing principle is to provide at least the maximum uptake levels of nutrients without regard to ratios.

    The concentrations are high, but in EI it does not matter if you are high, it only matters if you are too low.

    In any case you have clarified your existing dosages and it seems they are not as low as I had imagined. When you do the water change you should dose the daily amount immediately after the change so that if you normally dose 2mg/l every day then dose that amount after the water change. You can easily divide the weekly amounts and dose the macros 3 times per week and the micros 2 times per week.

    Regardless, if you have BBA then there is something wrong with the bubble rate or distribution so you should concentrate on reworking the flow patterns or the injection rate.

    Cheers,
     
  8. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    I think once you get a big growth of BBA you have to physically remove it or kill it with a bleach/water dip or with Excel or a hydrogen peroxide dip. Until you get it all killed it seems able to survive and thrive no matter how much CO2 you get into the water. And, getting rid of all of it in the tank or even 99% of it is really difficult at times. Once you do get rid of it, then keeping the CO2 level high, and fertillizing well, plus adding good water circulation and good routine cleaning should keep it from returning. I wish I could say I follow that advice, but I have trouble with it.
     
  9. borman

    borman Prolific Poster

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    So yestarday trying to remove as much as possible - today once again can see new infected leaves - esp on Eleoharis.
    About hydrogen peroxide - Which dose you can recommend -to nor affect on fishes and esp on shrimps. and not kill other plants (like glossostigma etc)
     
  10. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    I know some people dose their aquarium with hydrogen peroxide, but I have only used it to dip removed plants in. The advantage is that there is no residue that is harmful to the life in the aquarium, but I never found it to be as effective at killing BBA as a bleach dip is. I suspect one reason is that unless you have a newly opened bottle of peroxide you don't know how strong the mix in the bottle is. I think it degrades pretty quickly after the bottle is opened.

    I always have success with a 1 part bleach to 20 parts water mix as a dip for removed plants. And, I don't measure that mix very accurately, just estimate it. Most hardy plants can live through at least a 30 second dip in that mixture, but the BBA can not live through that. I dip hardscape and equipment in a much stronger bleach/water mixture.
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Borman, the tank has very little plant biomass.

    I would really consider doing more frequent water changes.
    This will not help the BBA.

    Peroxide sort of works, but it can kill plants and fish as well if you add too much.
    Be very careful.

    I prune BBA off and with good fast plant growth, have never had an issue in the last 15 years or so.

    It's generally CO2 almost every time.
    The Riccia is a nice plant to help you here with CO2.

    If you see bubbles on the Riccia about 1-2 hours into the light cycle, then you are in goods shape.

    Also, notice how the Riccia looks after a water change. do the water change in the morning right after the light's come on.

    Compare the amount of growth you see then versus the days you do not do a water change.

    You can dose right after the water change and this will keep plenty of nutrients and CO2 in the water. So the system will be more stable.

    You are removing everything and re setting the aquarium each time you do a water change. By dosing thereafter, you are adding back a known amount of nutrients.

    As far as the Redfield ratio, there have been many that are a poor understanding of what the ratio means.

    It is an atomic ratio, they only talk about Numbers of atoms, not their molar weight.

    We use weight mostly for dosing nutrients.

    So 1:16 P: N Redflied Ratio(RR), is 30.97 for P and 14.01 for N.

    If you convert this to weight mass, now you have 30.97/14.01 = ~ 2.2 X less than than the RR assumes.

    Or about 1:7.

    The aquarist have made the mistake by assuming they mean mass, not ratio of atoms. So they are 2.2 X off in their measurement.

    Simple mistake, but a big error!

    If you look at the N:p ratios for most aquatic plant from the research, they are 5:1 to 10:1, with an average of about 6-7:1. N:p.

    The RR is not wrong really, the application was/is.

    Sadly, even after pointing this out to several web sites, they still choose to keep promoting this error.

    Ignorance is one thing, willful stupidy is quite another.
    We should try not to be the latter:)

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. borman

    borman Prolific Poster

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    2 Tom Barr
    So 3x water changing by 50-60% and right after dosing NPK for 2 day..? - coorect?


    Yes in 2 hour after light is on the riccia is full of bubbles - but how it "help" with CO2? - you mean it eat 02 during night and evaporate C02 ? and "holding" co2 level by this?

    So now I have PO4:NO3 is 1:24 - its too low? - I made it taking into account that I feed fishes with dry feed ....
    Need I to encrease this ratio - or in my unstale situation can keep it?

    Also I dosing trace and few every day - shell I continue it?

    Thanks
     
  13. borman

    borman Prolific Poster

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    So... fighting but really no result.... Im nervous a lot. Dont want to restart tank...

    So I made as suggested

    Water changing 3 per week 60% and after it dosing 2x day NPK+Mg
    Micro+Fe every day.
    Light 3-4-3
    9-12 - 144 WT T8 (20 cm from surf - big loses)
    12-16 144wt+150wt MH
    16-19 144 wt

    I made stable co2 injection 3 bubbles per second from CO2Tank
    Check my tanks`s KH - 5,5 - 6 and PH 6,8 - so its about 38 mg/l
    Also D.Checker with KH4 is green-yellow and with tank water is green
    CO2 on - 2 hour before light and out with light out.

    I remved as much as possible BBA infected plant but - BBA is seems stronge over me.. Its also on stones and woods...

    Help me out
    May be try blackout methd..?
     
  14. Henry Hatch

    Henry Hatch Guru Class Expert

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    I'm coming up on 2 yrs on this forum and when I set up my first EI tank I had both BBA and BGA.

    On all my subsequent run ins I did 2 50% water changes a week, watch the co2, and dose excel to suppress algae. I also pay much closer attention now to circulation and pruning. Even on small tanks where the usi of a power filter is common I still stick a power head on the tank because I don't think power filters do a very good job of circulating. Don't underestimate the importance of good water circulation.

    When I got the bba and bga I increased circulation, increased water changes to 2 -3 50% changes a week vacuumed, cleaned, pruned, dosed excel ,and used an antibiotic for the bga. For the plants that had the bba I pruned the plant. If all the leaves are covered I tossed the plant or tried a dip in a weak bleach solution.

    If you look at my run in strategy I do the things that many people do after they get algae. A little extra work up front really pays off. This method has worked very well for me. However, in your case you got hit unusally fast.

    In the end it's a lot less work to prevent algae than to fight it.
     
  15. borman

    borman Prolific Poster

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    I do 3 changes 50-60% per week

    I made CO2 quite stable. About excel - here is not possibility to get this one. May be try H202 - but in which proportion to not harm plant, fishes and shrimps.
    Circulation - as you can see on pictures I add DIY CO2 mist reactor - it stand in opposite side of filter outlet and made good circulation.

    So for example if the upper leaves of Hygrophilla polysperma is without BBA but all lower one is infecter - I mut cut all infected leaves? - correct?

    Sorry, where I can look on your strategy?





    Yes you right - unusally fast - I think its beacause unstable CO2 and starting dosing NPK and Micro not the week 2.

    Oh.. help me God with this fight :)
     
  16. Henry Hatch

    Henry Hatch Guru Class Expert

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  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    You need a lot more PO4.
    2.5X more.

    Fish food has a lot more N than P in general.
    Depends on what type, but most dry foods will have more N waste.

    The nutrients while important, are less of an issue.
    Main problem is CO2.

    That is what you need to really focus on.
    Adding an SAE (Siamese algae eater) can help, but they cannot be expected to handle a bad case and the plants are still not doing as well since they are not getting enough CO2.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  18. borman

    borman Prolific Poster

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    Tom.

    Im stable my CO2 as you see from previous post. Some of the plants (H.polysperma) have good grows with big upper leaves. Lower leaves is infrcted with BBA. Also Glossostigma grows slowly, I prune infected leaves every day. New leaves on Glooso is really small and not gorw fast.
    I get out all my H.microntemum today will delete all infected stems and replant it.
    Actually I scare about BBA which on woods, stones etc. how deal with it.
     
  19. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    To get rid of the BBA on the wood and other dead materials in the aquarium: you can do a large water change and expose the objects to the air.

    Then you can use H2O2, peroxide, even concentrated solution of KH2PO4, then dribble it on the infected area.

    You may use a spray bottle also to make spreading the H2O2 over the area easier.
    Wait 2-5 minutes and then fill the aquarium. Do not use much(not more than 5-10mls per 10-20 gal of aquarium).

    You may do a water change again after this process to remove any excess H2O2.
    This may be repeated as often as needed or desired.

    This can allow you to add more H2O2 without harm to the fish.

    Alternatively, you can catch the fish and place them in another container while you treat and then do a large water change afterwards.

    A few good sprays with the bottle ought to kill any BBA it comes into contact with, some 10mls ought to get most of it, I think most spray bottle use about 1 ml or so, maybe less , maybe more, you can also measure what 10 sprays = into a measuring bottle to see, then divide by 10 to get the volume.

    Still, 2-3 good sprays ought to do it.
    Any objects you can remove easily can be bleached or H2O2 separately in a bucket for as long as you need.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  20. borman

    borman Prolific Poster

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    Thanks Tom - sorry for long silence - you mean pure h2o2 or solution?
     
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