HC issues (3 weeks after planting)

[Gerryd]

Hi,

I have been using prime and tap water on my 180 for 70-80% weekly water changes for almost 1.5 years with no issues.

I have even done daily 70% wc when battling algae or other issues with no adverse affects.

However, I do not dose more than recommended.........

 

[Tom Barr]

Update:

I used some ADA ECA, and literally overnight most of the yellows have greened. Plus the hairgrass sent out inches of runners...

I'm not saying the yellowing or melting is over...but the ECA seemed to help the HC a lot.

Then so should most any trace............if you believe that.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Tom Barr]

Also, did Tom do a chemical analysis on the ECA product specifically?

No, I'm not about to look at all the ADA products, just the ones we likely have a good chance at figuring out, anything that's an iron supplement.....which it is.........
can easily be tested against using a Fe based ferts alone, like Fe DTPA, Fe EDTA, Fe gluconate etc.......

If there's other stuff besides ferts, they are not really going to enhance growth.
If they are plant hormones, then adding Supre Thrive(available at ANY nursery), for 1.98$ for 4 oz, will also do the same.

Stick with nutrients and do not go for the fluff.
Let the plants produce their own secondary chemicals, which they do quite well.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Matt F.]

I just dosed 5x the amount of Prime in my tank. I cleaned my diffuser with bleach, so, just as a precaution, I over did the Prime.

I also added nitrate and some iron.

Prime binds ammonia till it can be metabolized by the bacteria/plants. IN this way it helps remove and detoxify.

According to Seachem (FAQ), they state that as a secondary side effect, Nitrite and Nitrate are also detoxified. The do not know how this is achieved chemically.

My question is, does the hydrosulfide salt bind the N (ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate) and prevent it from being utilized by plants?

This would create a nutrient deficiency.

 

[Biollante]

Prime Not Prime Suspect

According to the folks at Seachem anything over 5 times recommended is an overdose. As long as used as recommended ‘shouldn’t’ deplete nutrients. I still do not know what is in it or how it works.

Seachem emphasis that Prime causes no significant redox; as long as Prime is not overdosed or combined with certain, unspecified, reducing agents. My guess is as long as you are dosing in accordance with dosing instructions there shouldn’t be any problems.

Prime, should be biologically consumed within 24 hours. The recommended dose is one milliliter per ten gallons which, Seachem says will consume 3 ppm chloramines or 4 ppm chlorine. Using extra after cleaning with bleach is not a bad idea.

That line from the Seachem Prime product still intrigues me; (Seachem) do not understand "from a mechanistic standpoint" the effect on nitrogen.

I suspect (can’t cite, don’t know for sure) that Prime’s prime ingredient is innocuous and mundane, likely easily duplicated and that is the real reason for the mystery, the unwillingness to publish information.

I suspect (can’t cite, don’t know for sure) that overdosing Prime is simply a waste of money no further damage.

Biollante

 

[Matt F.]

I agree, Tom. And it was the suggestion of Biollante that it was a trace issue all along. Specifically Fe.

I still have some browning and yellowing of the lower leaves, but there is a lot of new healthy growth, it seems.

Regarding Seachem's FAQ on Prime: I did send them an email asking them specifically...I'll post the results of that email plus the original question tomorrow when I get a response.

BTW, I added phosphate in addition to the nitrogen, potassium, iron and boron, tonight after the water change.

 

[Matt F.]

Here is the response from seachem:

> Here is my specific question. Sorry for the multiple emails. The question has been refined to this:
>
> My question is: does the hydrosulfide salt in Prime bind the N (ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate) and prevent it from being utilized by plants?
>
> Thanks sooooooooo much!
>
> -Matt
>
> (my email)


Hello Matt,
The mechanism by which Prime binds to these things does not prevent the plant from being able to utilize them. Please let us know if we can assist you further.
Tech Support 10201

 

[Matt F.]

Just did my second HC haircut. Noticed that a lot of the taller growth is still having a hard time despite the increase in trace.

The tips of the HC are green, but the stock is browning and pinching off, which leaves the upper portions floating freely (while still attached).

I have increased trace elements, NPK, and added extra iron. I am at 4bps and have the filter spreading the CO2 bubbles all over the tank.

It takes less than an hour to have the HC start to pearl.

Too much current? I have a Eheim 2026 on a 20 gallon long (w/spraybar).

 

[SuperColey1]

Thats not a very powerful flow IMO. Should be enough but nowhere near where some of us are!!!

950lph is what they state and that to me makes about 12x turnover which should be fine.

I use 2200lph on my 33USG (17.6x) and some people go even further than that.

AC

 

[Matt F.]

It's now been over 5 weeks, and the green hair algae is taking over the lower portions of my HC.

Prior to this I had a case of GSA on my rocks and aquasoil, then the green hair algae set in, and now I have two little blips of BGA, which I manually removed.

I have dosed potassium nitrate to 10ppm, increased CO2 to 4bps+

I guess when ammonia levels drop more, I will add amano shrimp...

does anyone know what is going on nutrient wise in my tank?

 

[ceg4048]

Yes, hair algae is most definitely a CO2 issue. If PO4 is high and GSA occurs then this is typically also a CO2 issue.

Browning and deterioration of plant tissue is virtually always due to poor CO2.

You'll need to look at flow and distribution and/or injection rate and/or diffusion techniques.

In the interim it will help to reduce light intensity if possible.

Cheers,

 

[Matt F.]

The CO2 in my tank is diffused by an oversized Do!Aqua glass diffuser. I'm running 4bps on a milwaukee bubble counter in a 20 gallon long tank.

The portions that are yellowing are towards the diffuser.

The green hair algae is taking hold on the HC and the rocks...not on the hairgrass.

The GSA is on the aquasoil, which has plenty of phosphate and the rock.

I have 20ppm of nitrate in the tank fighting off BGA (only had two small specks on the rock).

water circulation is provided by an Eheim 2026 spraybar, which stirs up the CO2 bubbles.

I have even dosed a bit of excel!

this is craziness.

 

[Tom Barr]

I run 3 bubbles a second on a 120 Gallon aquarium.
Clean the disc often(2x a month in Tilex for 10 minutes, then rinse good a few times, add dechloro and return).

Regards,
Tom Barr

The CO2 in my tank is diffused by an oversized Do!Aqua glass diffuser. I'm running 4bps on a milwaukee bubble counter in a 20 gallon long tank.

The portions that are yellowing are towards the diffuser.

The green hair algae is taking hold on the HC and the rocks...not on the hairgrass.

The GSA is on the aquasoil, which has plenty of phosphate and the rock.

I have 20ppm of nitrate in the tank fighting off BGA (only had two small specks on the rock).

water circulation is provided by an Eheim 2026 spraybar, which stirs up the CO2 bubbles.

I have even dosed a bit of excel!

this is craziness.

 

[Matt F.]

Tom,

In other words, I am pushing too much CO2 for a 20 gallon?

Man, I need to make some 4 dkh solution.

Should I keep my CO2 up while I have the green hair algae problems, lower it to 2bps, redirect my water circulation, dose more excel?

 

[jonny_ftm]

I also run about 90 bpm, so 1.5bps for my 60 gal, low light. The AM1000 seems to do a good job, coupled to an Eheim 2078

 

[ceg4048]

Tom,

In other words, I am pushing too much CO2 for a 20 gallon?

Man, I need to make some 4 dkh solution.

Should I keep my CO2 up while I have the green hair algae problems, lower it to 2bps, redirect my water circulation, dose more excel?

Assuming you don't have any Excel sensitive plants/fish, it's a good idea to add more. Excel effective adds CO2 while at the same time has some algecidal properties.

No two people have the same bubble size so it might be a red herring to compare bubble rates.

HC has proven to be a high CO2 demanding plant and due to it's size is typically placed in an area of the tank which has some of the poorest CO2 distribution. So the idea is to ensure that you are forcing flow down to the front substrate level (or down to wherever the HC is situated).

The 2026 has a pump rating of 250GPH which ought to be enough if the flow distribution is arranged properly. Have you mounted the spray bars along the very top edge of the tank, near the water surface and along the back wall? This seems to be the best arrangement as long as the exit flow is horizontal. If you orient the holes too much downward this is sometimes counter-productive. You may need to move the diffuser to various locations to see how the bubbles move and where they tend to congregate.

65 watts T5 is a LOT of light on a 20 gallon tank and this is not doing you any favours at all. Such high energy levels create a very high nutrient and CO2 demand so the delivery of your CO2 requires precision. One need look no further for "craziness" than in the over-the-top light energy levels. I'd suggest you lower your light to give yourself more breathing room.

If your dropchecker is not using standard 4dkH distilled water then you might as well not have a dropchecker at all, because your readings will always be suspect.

I believe you also mentioned yellowing , in which case one should immediately suspect a Nitrogen shortfall, especially if BGA has appeared.

Cheers,

 

[Matt F.]

ceg4048-

Thanks for the clarification.

I am growing HC, have eleocharis A., 13 rummy nose tetras and 5 amano shrimp in this tank.

Since adding the fish/shrimp, the HC seems to be growing more...don't think it was a N deficiency...I was dosing potassium nitrate to 10-15 ppm. I had two spots of BGA, which I removed (they haven't come back).

The only difference is I have dropped the CO2 rate to 2 bps and reduced the photoperiod, which could account for the drop off of green hair/rhizo algae.

I'm getting healthier and greener HC growth. The eleocharis a. is about 10" tall...lol so much for "dwarf" hairgrass.

Yes, the Eheim 2026 spray-bar is placed horizontally across the back of the tank. My diffuser is located in the front left corner of my tank, and the bubbles seems to swirl across my tank...it's almost like the bubbles slam against the HC/ground before being flung about the tank. I am running my filter at full flow.

At 2 bps I get pearling in the HC and the fish seem fine.

I have REDUCED dosing ADA Step 1, but I have kept adding potassium.

Correction: I am not running 65 watts of T5, but I am running 65 watts of PC (30" Coralife single bulb fixture). I agree 65 watts of T5 would be crazy!!! LOL

As far as the drop checker goes, I removed it from my tank. I agree that drop checker are accurate only when used with a 4dkh solution...otherwise what are we measuring???

I figure with my current level of CO2 and the increased growth rates at the lower bps/smaller photoperiod is a good sign.

It's also a good sign that my rummies have red noses and my amanos are all healthy.

so far (knock on wood), things are getting better. I am not using GH booster anymore. I am still using Prime (higher doses during the acclimation of the fish/shrimp).

As far as Excel...I am up for that, but I also hear that HC is a bit touch with it...is this true (most likely at overdose levels).

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
I've never had any trouble with HC when dosing high levels of Excel. HC definitely responds well to these products.

A Power Compact (PC) bulb is typically a T5 design. Does your bulb look something like this?=> PC BULB 65W 6700K - Aquarium Center, Inc.

If so then it is T5. I didn't realize those brand name bulbs were so expensive. $40 for a light bulb, wow!

Cheers,

 

[Matt F.]

Hi,
I've never had any trouble with HC when dosing high levels of Excel. HC definitely responds well to these products.

A Power Compact (PC) bulb is typically a T5 design. Does your bulb look something like this?=> PC BULB 65W 6700K - Aquarium Center, Inc.

If so then it is T5. I didn't realize those brand name bulbs were so expensive. $40 for a light bulb, wow!

Cheers,

Good to know about the HC/Excel combo.

Didn't know that PC bulbs and T5s are basically the same. The bulb that you linked is exactly the one that I am using (straight pin and all--21" in a 30" fixture). I am thinking about going with the 10,000K. 6700k is a bit too yellow for me.

What are the differences? I thought that 3.0-3.6 watts pC light per gallon is in the right ballpark for higher light plants (even though HC and DHG can survive at lower light levels). Anything over about 3.6-4 PC watts is a suicide ride. As far as I know you need less wattage for a T5 bulb to do the same job.

By the way, I can get the bulbs for half the price in that link...whew, that is expensive!

 

[Matt F.]

The latest bout has been with BGA.

I know, from reading, that low N is one cause of BGA. I've been dosing KNO3 to 30 ppm for a few weeks. Prior to that, it was 15-20 ppm.

THe BGA took over literally overnight.

I am in my second day of Erythromycin treatment (the BGA smell is a lot less).

I have also added 13 more RCS (they were suppose to be Amanos, but they shipped the wrong shrimp).

The HC looks better over night!

The hair algae is virtually non-existant.