HC issues (3 weeks after planting)

[Matt F.]

Hi, all-

I have posted a thread at another site regarding my issue, so if you are seeing double, no you aren't losing your sight.

Here is the time frame:

I planted my 20L three weeks ago tomorrow.
I have 65 watts of 6700K PC over my tank (7 hours of light)
I have been injecting 3-4 bps of pressurized C02 since the start.
I am running an eheim 2026 with inline heater set at 76*F

The first two weeks, the HC took off. 12 days into the cycle, I had to trim the tops due to the fact that the lower leaves were yellowing a bit.

This past week, I noticed aside from the yellowing (light brown spots on the leaves), the runners were green on the top and browning halway down the stem.

The higher portions of the plant are swaying with the current...it looks like they are melting and pinching off from the base plant.

Here are my water chem stats:

76*F
PH: 6.0
NO2: 0ppm
NO3: 10ppm
NH3+4: 2ppm

I have dosed "Left over" ADA Brighty K (Potassium Sulfate), Brighty Green Step-1 (Traces), and even tried some phosphate.

No-one seems to know what is going on. My long term plan is to see how this yellowing/melting works itself out.

I am going to get some iron tomorrow, and a phosphate test kit.

Besides this, what can I do? Has anyone had issues with HC like this?

Thanks.

 

[Matt F.]

This HC was grown submersed, so I don't think it is the normal die-off experienced by people planting immersed HC.

 

[Matt F.]

Another issue:

Can Prime cause melting?

 

[Biollante]

Got Micros?

Are you using CSM+B or the equivalent?

This almost sounds like a boron deficiency.

Iron without Manganese isn’t going to get you very far.

Can you tell if the yellowish bits are between the leaf veins? That suggests Manganese deficiency.

If the yellowish stuff is between the veins with the brownish areas along the edge, it suggests Molybdenum deficiency.

At any rate all the above scream micros.

CSM+B or the equivalent is my best guess.

Also, 65 watts into 20 liters, seems intense, to say the least. You may have gotten a good twelve days and sucked up the nutrients, especially the micros.

Biollante

 

[Biollante]

Prime

Another issue:

Can Prime cause melting?

I have never heard of Seachem’s Prime causing melting, but I suppose it could be possible that in sufficient quantities it is binding up Nitrogen, depriving your plants of a macro.

Nitrogen deficiency does tend to turn the leaves yellow and the older leaves die quickly.

Just because I have never seen it, does not mean it is not happening. I suggest stopping the use of Prime and contact Seachem.

I’ll do a little research.

Biollante

 

[Matt F.]

Biollante,

Thanks for your response.

I have emailed Seachem and asked them about hydrosulfide salts and their effect on freshwater plants at high concetrations. I'll post the email when I get a response.

I remember reading on the website that although it detoxifies ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite, these compounds are still available to the bacteria (not sure about the plants).

I have been using ADA Brighty Green Step 1 for traces (I haven't subscribed to this forum yet, so I don't know exactly what traces are in the Brighty Green series).

I am also using ADA Special Lights (potassium, phosphate, and nitrate).

I will be switching to EI when my left over ADA stuff runs out.

Looks like the whole leaf is affected, stems, too.

80% of the HC looks green (not as green as I'd like it), but the portions of yellow and the melting of the longer stems are still shwoing up.

I have 40% vertial growth and 60% horizontal...it's the 40% of vertical growth that is affected.

BTw, this in soft San Francisco water. I am using Seachem Equiliubrium as a GH booster. THe Brighty K does something to KH.

my GH is: 5 dgh
my KH is: 3 dkh

 

[Matt F.]

Also correction:

I have a 20L, as in 20 gallon long.

That would be crazy light for a 20ltr. (5 gallon tank) LoL.

 

[jonny_ftm]

In my opinion, identifying the cause of a deficiency only on the aspect of leafs is a myth. It could be ok for well trained botanist, but for most people, I don't believe it is possible. Add it a diagnosis we should make on description, without photos (keeping in mind that photos will see even less details than our eyes on a direct inspection...) The problem is that you must identify the modifications at the earliest stages, sometimes needing a microscope. At mid-end stages, many deficiencies will lead to same aspect.

So instead of trying to play a guess and try to see if it is magnagnese, boron, iron or other stuff, just never use fertilizers you just don't know anything of their content.

Tom, put EI method in place to rule out nutrients deficiencies, keeping only CO2 and light into equation. Also, ruling out CO2 as the cause, just based on your CO2 bps doesn't mean anything. HC needs CO2 circulation at the middle bottom of the tank, where we all know there's the less water flow, yet the most intense light, based on the recent PAR data.

Also, soil type is important for HC to root, a sand/mineralized soil giving it definately a better chance to kick off. A gravel would definately be a problem for new shoots to root ---> they'll rot. I only have expierience with easier rooting carpetting plants (P. helferi, E. tenellus) and a sand with mineralized/organic soil really makes the difference

I'll advice to switch to EI (it can be any product, but at least you should know the avarage ppm of NPK and micro you add) and once done, focus on CO2/light/water flow where the plants aren't doing well

 

[Biollante]

My Humble Apologies

In my opinion, identifying the cause of a deficiency only on the aspect of leafs is a myth. It could be ok for well trained botanist, but for most people, I don't believe it is possible. Add it a diagnosis we should make on description, without photos (keeping in mind that photos will see even less details than our eyes on a direct inspection...) The problem is that you must identify the modifications at the earliest stages, sometimes needing a microscope. At mid-end stages, many deficiencies will lead to same aspect.

So instead of trying to play a guess and try to see if it is magnagnese, boron, iron or other stuff, just never use fertilizers you just don't know anything of their content.

Tom, put EI method in place to rule out nutrients deficiencies, keeping only CO2 and light into equation. Also, ruling out CO2 as the cause, just based on your CO2 bps doesn't mean anything. HC needs CO2 circulation at the middle bottom of the tank, where we all know there's the less water flow, yet the most intense light, based on the recent PAR data.

Also, soil type is important for HC to root, a sand/mineralized soil giving it definately a better chance to kick off. A gravel would definately be a problem for new shoots to root ---> they'll rot. I only have expierience with easier rooting carpetting plants (P. helferi, E. tenellus) and a sand with mineralized/organic soil really makes the difference

I'll advice to switch to EI (it can be any product, but at least you should know the avarage ppm of NPK and micro you add) and once done, focus on CO2/light/water flow where the plants aren't doing well

My most humble apologies, obviously the answer is to provide an abundance of nutrients so exploring a given set of possibilities are wrong, it will not happen again.

As noted, I am no expert botanist or otherwise.

Biollante

 

[Biollante]

In Defense of Observation

I have never heard of Seachem’s Prime causing melting, but I suppose it could be possible that in sufficient quantities it is binding up Nitrogen, depriving your plants of a macro.

Nitrogen deficiency does tend to turn the leaves yellow and the older leaves die quickly.

Just because I have never seen it, does not mean it is not happening. I suggest stopping the use of Prime and contact Seachem.

I’ll do a little research.

Biollante

Speaking strictly as a non-botanist, expert or otherwise, I did a little reading at the Seachem. Prime FAQ and myth or not they (Seachem), say that they (Seachem) do not understand "from a mechanistic standpoint" the effect on nitrogen and though, apparently a myth, that anything can be learned from viewing the condition of our plants; I would, with the greatest of humility suggest, that it is at least possible that Seachem Prime could be responsible for the condition you observed in your plants.

Just me, but I would stop using the stuff.

I stand by and fully support, the idea that observation is in fact our best tool. I agree, to us, non-professionals it can lead to confusion, but with study, careful analysis and replicable experimentation, comes understanding.

The words "I don't know" are the beginning of wisdom. I don't care if those words are attributed to Einstein or The Apostle Paul, I believe them correct.

Biollante

 

[Matt F.]

Biollante-

I appreciate your help and willingness to figure out what is going on. I have received a response from seachem regarding Prime. Although I am not sold on their response, at least it relieves some of my discomfort with hydrosulfide salts and plants. Here is what I wrote and the response that I got:

"Hi,
>
> I have been using your product in my invert tanks. I would like to use it in my planted tank, but I do have a few quesions regarding hydrosulfide salts and aquatic plants:
>
> 1)Have there been any documented cases of Seachem Prime affecting freshwater aquatic plant growth at higher concentrations?
>
> 2)Do you know if there are any sensitive plants to this product?
>
> 3)How safe is it to use in a planted aquarium?
>
> Thank you!
> Matt Farwell
> (my email)
>

Hi Matt,

Thank you for the email. Prime (when dosed as instructed on the label) is safe to use in all aquariums: freshwater, planted, cichlid, saltwater, etc. As far as we know, there have been no documented cases where Prime has affected aquatic plants in any negative way. Also, to our knowledge, there are no sensitive plants to Prime. It is perfectly fine to use Prime in your planted tanks. If you would like to read more information, here is the link to the Prime product web page:

Seachem. Prime

We hope this information helps; please let us know if you need any further assistance. Have a great day!

Thank you,

Tech Support 1076

 

[Matt F.]

Jonny,

No doubt Tom's EI method is easy and awesome. The only two factors you have to worry about are light and CO2. It's as cheap as it gets and it works!!!

That being said, I do have left over ADA ferts., which I will use. If I didn't use up the ADA product, I would be wasting my money.

I am using Aquasoil Amazonia I, so substrate nutrients aren't a problem.

Something happened during the 2nd-3rd week that cause the lower portions of the HC to lose color and start pinching off runners.

My thought is that the HC is investing all of its energy on root development not vertical/horizontal growth. It's in rich soil...what a temptation!

90% of the HC is still green.

I will continue with the ADA Brighty K (Potassium), ADA Step 1 (trace), and ECA, which is rich in iron.

The C02 and water circulation is not a problem...I have an Eheim 2026 in a 20 gallon long...lol

The light is going on for 7 hours per day.

I'll try to post some pics..although the color isn't going to be as vivid...


Thanks to all!

 

[jonny_ftm]

My most humble apologies, obviously the answer is to provide an abundance of nutrients so exploring a given set of possibilities are wrong, it will not happen again.

As noted, I am no expert botanist or otherwise.

Biollante

Hi Biollante,

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you, really. I think my approximate english some times doesn't help me to moderate my writing as to what my pacefull mind is thinking. Hopefully you understand what I mean. So, sorry again if you felt offended, really, I don't mean it

 

[Biollante]

My Apologies to Jonny and All

Hi Biollante,

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you, really. I think my approximate english some times doesn't help me to moderate my writing as to what my pacefull mind is thinking. Hopefully you understand what I mean. So, sorry again if you felt offended, really, I don't mean it

Hi Jonny,

My over-reaction, my apologies.

I don't quite know why I reacted so, the Evil Plant Monster thing, I guess.

Observation, analysis, understanding are kind of my "hot" button.

I should have refrained from responding or just pm'ed you for clarification.

So many issues arise over expensive test equipment, over-priced test kits that aren't calibrated, over-priced 'miracle cures', untested and unsubstantiated garbage.

When just taking a good hard look, maybe getting some advice or doing some research would yield the answer.

All accompanied by a massive water change.

We seem to be hung up on numbers. I think good observation can take us a long way.

Having said that, the issues almost always revolve around macro nutrients, CO2, micro nutrients and "good practices."

Once again my apologies for my childish over-reaction and pedantic behavior.

You are one of my favorites, love your willingness to share, the threads and posts.

Biollante

 

[Matt F.]

Update:

I used some ADA ECA, and literally overnight most of the yellows have greened. Plus the hairgrass sent out inches of runners...

I'm not saying the yellowing or melting is over...but the ECA seemed to help the HC a lot.

 

[Biollante]

Still Screaming For Micros

Update:

I used some ADA ECA, and literally overnight most of the yellows have greened. Plus the hairgrass sent out inches of runners...

I'm not saying the yellowing or melting is over...but the ECA seemed to help the HC a lot.

I think your deficiency was in the micros, mostly iron, I do not know precisely what is in ECA or if to continue to get those great results you need to add other products to avoid depleting other micros.

Tom Barr has a good read at http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/4603-understanding-ada-products.html

I know many years ago there was a product line called Dupla that reminds me of this bunch, you always need another product. In fact I moved to PMDD, which I think we used to call Poor Mans Dupla Drops, I suspect someone got threatened with trademark infringement and came to call it Poor Mans Dosing Drops.

Before I got carried away with other things, I think I said your plants were screaming for micros, I still think that is the case.

Though the Prime thing still interests me.

For my money CSM+B, if you feel bad about not spending a lot, give the difference to the charity of your choice.

Biollante

 

[Matt F.]

Believe me, I'm going to switch to EI. I just have ADA ferts left over from my old tank.

The ECA was an expensive fun project.

Lets see how this works, but there is plenty of new horizontal growth, and the new growth (1 day old) seems a bit more solid.

I'll keep you all posted. BTW, I'll keep the Prime dose down to the min : 1ml per 10 gallons...

I didn't have this problem with HC when I used Aquasafe...

 

[Biollante]

Good luck!

I am really curoius about Prime; that FAQ, is strange.

Biollante

 

[Matt F.]

Lets keep this thread open for debate about Prime.

I don't see how a hydrosulfide salt is okay to use (in higher concentrations) in a planted tank.

Also, did Tom do a chemical analysis on the ECA product specifically?

 

[Daniel Morris]

For whatever its worth, I used prime for 2-3 years and while my tank was not perfect (it never will be) I didn't experience any problems of the kind you mentioned you were having.

I have 220 watts over 72 gallons, but no HC. I had alot of growth.

I did have my suspicions about prime though... especially when things weren't going so well...