Green Dust Algae: please help!
- Thread starter fablau
- Start date
To bring an old post back to life: This is an interesting read about GDA, or Ankistrodesmus. It shows why CO2 tanks have more problems with it and also the growth curve seems to have slmething to do with the " don"t touch for a few weeks" method.
http://www.aessweb.com/download.php?id=1761
http://www.aessweb.com/download.php?id=1761
Thank you dutchy for the interesting link. From what I see, they tested that in an sterile environment without competing plants, so it is pretty obvious that an excess of Co2 can lead to algae proliferation. That's just another confirmation that without plants, algae take over easily if extra nutrients (i.e. co2) are present in solution.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Yes, to learn much, we need aquatic plants under horticultural conditions with CO2 enrichment, then induce algae and measure rates of growth.
You can use artificial media such as glass slides or small ceramic tiles placed in random locations all over the tank for say 1-8 weeks.
You take these out and check a few under a scope to confirm and photograph the species.
Next, since you can measure these tiles area, you place them into hot 90% ETOH into a water bath at 70C for 10 min or 60C for 1 hour etc.
You can measure the concentration of Chl a and get a good base line for algae density and biomass using a simple spectrophotometer.
http://algalweb.net/Methods/Chlorophyll-ethanol-extraction.pdf
Some of the methods can be skipped above since the entire sample can be added to a test chamber/tube etc.
No need to filter from the water. For methods, research yes, but less so for hobbyists, this is not a hard method to follow. I did thousands of them.
This acetone method with the sampler will give you a nice curve:
http://www.jenway.com/adminimages/A09_001A_Spectrophotometry_of_chlorophyll_a_and_b.pdf
But acetone, meth etc, they are quite toxic, not too bad for 90% ETOH, old demon rum.
These methods have some issues, since they are not optimized specific to the species that plague our tanks, but you could correlate some on the GDA with the above paper Dutchy linked. I'm not sure it's the same species, but the genus is good.
That would offer decent support then.
I tend to think generally CO2 enriched tanks when they get algae blooms, are much more intense than non cO2 enriched tanks. But the higher light generally in CO2 enriched tanks skews this data also.
Hard to say.
I've never had much issue for logn at home with this alga.
Green hair was more an issue, but that's not even an issue.
These days, it's Bladderwort(veyr hard), snails(extremely hard) and Riccia(moderately hard).
Algae, not so much.
A client got more GDA recently.
I added more plecos to see if it will work again.
Since I cannot do many other options for this client, there's not much recourse really.
Unless I wipe the tank 2-3x a week, I cannot do a blackout of let it be for 3-4 weeks then wipe......
Neither is really an option. I tried EM dosing also, made matters worse.
Plants, moss, stems and foreground does well, they grow and Xmas moss tends not to look good or attach well with poor CO2.
Fish feeding might be an issue for other reasons.
Lights are the same type and bulbs as my tanks at home.
CO2 is good but not 100%. I cannot sit and watch the tank for a few hours or near the end of the day cycle to assess the CO2 effectively.
I'm not willing to kill fish with CO2.
There is copper in the pipes, but I flush it prior to water changes and run a carbon block prefilter before the tap enters the tank.
Never had much snails the last few years and never shrimp success.
http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=136521&fileOId=624597
You can use artificial media such as glass slides or small ceramic tiles placed in random locations all over the tank for say 1-8 weeks.
You take these out and check a few under a scope to confirm and photograph the species.
Next, since you can measure these tiles area, you place them into hot 90% ETOH into a water bath at 70C for 10 min or 60C for 1 hour etc.
You can measure the concentration of Chl a and get a good base line for algae density and biomass using a simple spectrophotometer.
http://algalweb.net/Methods/Chlorophyll-ethanol-extraction.pdf
Some of the methods can be skipped above since the entire sample can be added to a test chamber/tube etc.
No need to filter from the water. For methods, research yes, but less so for hobbyists, this is not a hard method to follow. I did thousands of them.
This acetone method with the sampler will give you a nice curve:
http://www.jenway.com/adminimages/A09_001A_Spectrophotometry_of_chlorophyll_a_and_b.pdf
But acetone, meth etc, they are quite toxic, not too bad for 90% ETOH, old demon rum.
These methods have some issues, since they are not optimized specific to the species that plague our tanks, but you could correlate some on the GDA with the above paper Dutchy linked. I'm not sure it's the same species, but the genus is good.
That would offer decent support then.
I tend to think generally CO2 enriched tanks when they get algae blooms, are much more intense than non cO2 enriched tanks. But the higher light generally in CO2 enriched tanks skews this data also.
Hard to say.
I've never had much issue for logn at home with this alga.
Green hair was more an issue, but that's not even an issue.
These days, it's Bladderwort(veyr hard), snails(extremely hard) and Riccia(moderately hard).
Algae, not so much.
A client got more GDA recently.
I added more plecos to see if it will work again.
Since I cannot do many other options for this client, there's not much recourse really.
Unless I wipe the tank 2-3x a week, I cannot do a blackout of let it be for 3-4 weeks then wipe......
Neither is really an option. I tried EM dosing also, made matters worse.
Plants, moss, stems and foreground does well, they grow and Xmas moss tends not to look good or attach well with poor CO2.
Fish feeding might be an issue for other reasons.
Lights are the same type and bulbs as my tanks at home.
CO2 is good but not 100%. I cannot sit and watch the tank for a few hours or near the end of the day cycle to assess the CO2 effectively.
I'm not willing to kill fish with CO2.
There is copper in the pipes, but I flush it prior to water changes and run a carbon block prefilter before the tap enters the tank.
Never had much snails the last few years and never shrimp success.
http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=136521&fileOId=624597
Yes, to learn much, we need aquatic plants under horticultural conditions with CO2 enrichment, then induce algae and measure rates of growth.
You can use artificial media such as glass slides or small ceramic tiles placed in random locations all over the tank for say 1-8 weeks.
You take these out and check a few under a scope to confirm and photograph the species.
Next, since you can measure these tiles area, you place them into hot 90% ETOH into a water bath at 70C for 10 min or 60C for 1 hour etc.
You can measure the concentration of Chl a and get a good base line for algae density and biomass using a simple spectrophotometer.
http://algalweb.net/Methods/Chlorophyll-ethanol-extraction.pdf
Some of the methods can be skipped above since the entire sample can be added to a test chamber/tube etc.
No need to filter from the water. For methods, research yes, but less so for hobbyists, this is not a hard method to follow. I did thousands of them.
This acetone method with the sampler will give you a nice curve:
http://www.jenway.com/adminimages/A09_001A_Spectrophotometry_of_chlorophyll_a_and_b.pdf
But acetone, meth etc, they are quite toxic, not too bad for 90% ETOH, old demon rum.
These methods have some issues, since they are not optimized specific to the species that plague our tanks, but you could correlate some on the GDA with the above paper Dutchy linked. I'm not sure it's the same species, but the genus is good.
That would offer decent support then.
I tend to think generally CO2 enriched tanks when they get algae blooms, are much more intense than non cO2 enriched tanks. But the higher light generally in CO2 enriched tanks skews this data also.
Hard to say.
I've never had much issue for logn at home with this alga.
Green hair was more an issue, but that's not even an issue.
These days, it's Bladderwort(veyr hard), snails(extremely hard) and Riccia(moderately hard).
Algae, not so much.
A client got more GDA recently.
I added more plecos to see if it will work again.
Since I cannot do many other options for this client, there's not much recourse really.
Unless I wipe the tank 2-3x a week, I cannot do a blackout of let it be for 3-4 weeks then wipe......
Neither is really an option. I tried EM dosing also, made matters worse.
Plants, moss, stems and foreground does well, they grow and Xmas moss tends not to look good or attach well with poor CO2.
Fish feeding might be an issue for other reasons.
Lights are the same type and bulbs as my tanks at home.
CO2 is good but not 100%. I cannot sit and watch the tank for a few hours or near the end of the day cycle to assess the CO2 effectively.
I'm not willing to kill fish with CO2.
There is copper in the pipes, but I flush it prior to water changes and run a carbon block prefilter before the tap enters the tank.
Never had much snails the last few years and never shrimp success.
http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=136521&fileOId=624597
You can use artificial media such as glass slides or small ceramic tiles placed in random locations all over the tank for say 1-8 weeks.
You take these out and check a few under a scope to confirm and photograph the species.
Next, since you can measure these tiles area, you place them into hot 90% ETOH into a water bath at 70C for 10 min or 60C for 1 hour etc.
You can measure the concentration of Chl a and get a good base line for algae density and biomass using a simple spectrophotometer.
http://algalweb.net/Methods/Chlorophyll-ethanol-extraction.pdf
Some of the methods can be skipped above since the entire sample can be added to a test chamber/tube etc.
No need to filter from the water. For methods, research yes, but less so for hobbyists, this is not a hard method to follow. I did thousands of them.
This acetone method with the sampler will give you a nice curve:
http://www.jenway.com/adminimages/A09_001A_Spectrophotometry_of_chlorophyll_a_and_b.pdf
But acetone, meth etc, they are quite toxic, not too bad for 90% ETOH, old demon rum.
These methods have some issues, since they are not optimized specific to the species that plague our tanks, but you could correlate some on the GDA with the above paper Dutchy linked. I'm not sure it's the same species, but the genus is good.
That would offer decent support then.
I tend to think generally CO2 enriched tanks when they get algae blooms, are much more intense than non cO2 enriched tanks. But the higher light generally in CO2 enriched tanks skews this data also.
Hard to say.
I've never had much issue for logn at home with this alga.
Green hair was more an issue, but that's not even an issue.
These days, it's Bladderwort(veyr hard), snails(extremely hard) and Riccia(moderately hard).
Algae, not so much.
A client got more GDA recently.
I added more plecos to see if it will work again.
Since I cannot do many other options for this client, there's not much recourse really.
Unless I wipe the tank 2-3x a week, I cannot do a blackout of let it be for 3-4 weeks then wipe......
Neither is really an option. I tried EM dosing also, made matters worse.
Plants, moss, stems and foreground does well, they grow and Xmas moss tends not to look good or attach well with poor CO2.
Fish feeding might be an issue for other reasons.
Lights are the same type and bulbs as my tanks at home.
CO2 is good but not 100%. I cannot sit and watch the tank for a few hours or near the end of the day cycle to assess the CO2 effectively.
I'm not willing to kill fish with CO2.
There is copper in the pipes, but I flush it prior to water changes and run a carbon block prefilter before the tap enters the tank.
Never had much snails the last few years and never shrimp success.
http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=136521&fileOId=624597
Something interesting happened to me, but it's hard to draw a conclusion from because more than one thing changed. Still though! Check this out.
I have always had issues with GDA. I went out and bought 2 of the bushy nose plecos that Tom suggested. The tank is a 75G. (I meant to buy far more, but a miscommunication occurred and I was buying lots of stuff so I didn't notice till later).
5 days later I moved the tank 10 Miles to my new home. I did this by catching as many fish as possible, leaving all plants in the tank with an inch of water then refilling the tank at the new location.
When I moved the tank I lowered the light level, it is now at about 20 PAR for 4 hours a day, and 50 PAR for 6 hours per day. This is cut about in half, previously it had about 75 PAR for 10 hours.
When I got the tank here, the move was in full swing, I didn't clean the glass or anything, I just filled it, fed the fish, threw in ferts and let it run. C02 is injected by PH, so I'm pretty sure that remained the same.
I was shocked to find that the algae was slowly dying off over the next week, and 5 days later it hardly needed a cleaning. It has now been about 2 weeks since the move I wiped the glass a week ago and it is still crystal clear, even GDA that was places the Plecos can't reach like below the gravel line is gone.
I don't know what the cause is, but I also see lots of paint missing off my PVC parts, so I know the Plecos are playing a role. I suspect they are the key reason because I've tried lower light before without success, but that's hardly conclusive I know.
Whiskey
I have always had issues with GDA. I went out and bought 2 of the bushy nose plecos that Tom suggested. The tank is a 75G. (I meant to buy far more, but a miscommunication occurred and I was buying lots of stuff so I didn't notice till later).
5 days later I moved the tank 10 Miles to my new home. I did this by catching as many fish as possible, leaving all plants in the tank with an inch of water then refilling the tank at the new location.
When I moved the tank I lowered the light level, it is now at about 20 PAR for 4 hours a day, and 50 PAR for 6 hours per day. This is cut about in half, previously it had about 75 PAR for 10 hours.
When I got the tank here, the move was in full swing, I didn't clean the glass or anything, I just filled it, fed the fish, threw in ferts and let it run. C02 is injected by PH, so I'm pretty sure that remained the same.
I was shocked to find that the algae was slowly dying off over the next week, and 5 days later it hardly needed a cleaning. It has now been about 2 weeks since the move I wiped the glass a week ago and it is still crystal clear, even GDA that was places the Plecos can't reach like below the gravel line is gone.
I don't know what the cause is, but I also see lots of paint missing off my PVC parts, so I know the Plecos are playing a role. I suspect they are the key reason because I've tried lower light before without success, but that's hardly conclusive I know.
Whiskey
If you remove the BNP's and the GDA comes back.....then you have a good idea.
If they do work, then doing this is not an issue as far as the GDA is concerned, but it might be a PITA to catch all or most of them too.
So there is little risk in testing the BNP's.
If the treatment(adding lots of BNP's) does NOT work, then it does not matter either way.
The places GDA infest is non accessible to BNP's also, but if it keeps getting eaten and cannot bloom aggressively/actively, then this might signal that it's not a good place to grow or time.
If they do work, then doing this is not an issue as far as the GDA is concerned, but it might be a PITA to catch all or most of them too.
So there is little risk in testing the BNP's.
If the treatment(adding lots of BNP's) does NOT work, then it does not matter either way.
The places GDA infest is non accessible to BNP's also, but if it keeps getting eaten and cannot bloom aggressively/actively, then this might signal that it's not a good place to grow or time.
If you remove the BNP's and the GDA comes back.....then you have a good idea.
If they do work, then doing this is not an issue as far as the GDA is concerned, but it might be a PITA to catch all or most of them too.
So there is little risk in testing the BNP's.
If the treatment(adding lots of BNP's) does NOT work, then it does not matter either way.
The places GDA infest is non accessible to BNP's also, but if it keeps getting eaten and cannot bloom aggressively/actively, then this might signal that it's not a good place to grow or time.
If they do work, then doing this is not an issue as far as the GDA is concerned, but it might be a PITA to catch all or most of them too.
So there is little risk in testing the BNP's.
If the treatment(adding lots of BNP's) does NOT work, then it does not matter either way.
The places GDA infest is non accessible to BNP's also, but if it keeps getting eaten and cannot bloom aggressively/actively, then this might signal that it's not a good place to grow or time.
Yes, that's good Whiskey, please let us know if the fix is consistent and if actually can be attributed to the BNP, the light or a combination of both. I have done something similar, reducing the time of the front light of a couple of hours (8 to 6) and added a bunch of BNP, and reduced GDA at least 50% on the front glass. Almost clean after 2 weeks!
The BMP are a pain to catch, and I don't have anywhere to put them if I do, so I decided to up the light and see what happens. After some time I got a light dusting of algae on the glass again, not as bad as before but there; however something is clearly eating it now. The algae was in patches and had lots of bite marks in it like the bmp were grazing before I could see the stuff.
i think both are having a effect, I think the light slowed growth, and the bmp have been eating it preventing it from spreading and reproducing.
Pretty good for only 2 of them
whiskey
i think both are having a effect, I think the light slowed growth, and the bmp have been eating it preventing it from spreading and reproducing.
Pretty good for only 2 of them
whiskey
Yes, that's exactly what I think too. I have 4 BNP and they are doing a pretty good job in my 75gl tank! The only issue I faced was to forget to feed them properly as soon as the algae were reduced, so they begun scraping my plant leaves (Swords and Higrophilas). Now I am feeding them so that problem should go away.
Yes, Tom's right, they compete with Amanos as well as with Otos and other shrimp. It is actually better to feed them to avoid them eating on your plants. I have begun feeding them regularly in the past 5 days, so I need to wait a little bit to actually see of my plants get better... I will keep you posted!
FWIW, so does Purigen and fresh fine filter pads in my Eheim 2217.
I cranked the CO2 way down, and GDA has become less of an issue. I'm also at 7.5 hours of light. I have the GDA under control. I've also added HM to the back left corner of the tank two days ago.
I cranked the CO2 way down, and GDA has become less of an issue. I'm also at 7.5 hours of light. I have the GDA under control. I've also added HM to the back left corner of the tank two days ago.
dutchy;120956 said:
Matt, looks like you had too much Co2 compared with the other nutrients... Do you think that's the case?
I've had GDA in both EI and Non-EI tanks. The commonality is low plant biomass, an excess of CO2 and light, IMO.