GO CYL-20 Dual Stage Stainless Steel CO2 Regulator Build

SaltyNC

Junior Poster
Jul 27, 2012
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This will be my first regulator build. I was inspired by the great build threads and how-to's located here. Thanks to everyone who took the time to contribute. Your efforts helped me tremendously, and I hope this build will help others in kind.

The regulator I'm building is the GO CYL-20. It is a dual stage, corrosion resistant, 316L Stainless Steel regulator. This particular unit features a 0-3000 PSI inlet with integrated filter, and a 0-50 PSI outlet with a diaphragm control valve. This regulator is made by or assembled by Circor Technologies in Spartanburg, SC.
http://www.goreg.com/products/regulators/cylinder/index.htm
http://www.goreg.com/products/regulators/cylinder/cyl20/cyl20_2006-08_lo.pdf

Here is the regulator as I received it.
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29001.jpg


The inlet on this unit was configured with a CGA 350 nut and nipple, and I will need CGA 320 for CO[SUP]2[/SUP]. My first step was to remove this, and I had been warned that it would probably not be fun, and that the threads of stainless steel are not forgiving. However, I was pleasantly surprised when the threads broke loose fairly easily using only an adjustable wrench. Whatever thread sealant was used is excellent. It remains rubbery even when dry, so parts can be removed if necessary. Once I had removed the nipple, I noticed some strange scratches near the port. I'm not sure what would cause that, as nothing should be near the port when the nipple was originally installed. The end of the nipple accepts a wrench just fine, far away from the regulator body. If anyone has any ideas about the scratches, please let me know.
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29003.jpg


The threads look good on the removed nipple. Some new gauges are left hand threaded, which means you loosen them by turning them clockwise. I wanted to make sure none of my threads were left hand threaded. As it turned out, all of mine are standard right hand threaded. Here is how you can tell.
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29004.jpg


Once the inlet nipple was removed, I could get a good luck at the threads on the regulator side. They looked good, as well, but I noticed quite a bit of thread sealant that would need to be removed. I discovered the integrated filter, so I didn't need to worry about pieces of thread sealant falling inside the regulator, and that made cleanup a lot easier.
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29006.jpg


To remove the thread sealant remnants, I picked up a set of dental picks at Harbor Freight. Cheap!!
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29007.jpg


This was the perfect tool for the job.
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29010.jpg


Next was to address my first major blunder. When I purchased the regulator, I failed to notice that even though the regulator is setup for up to 3000 PSI at the inlet, the gauge only went to 600 PSI. Finding a replacement gauge for a good price is proving to be extremely difficult. I could sure use some suggestions if you have any. Ideally, I would like to find just a matching high-side gauge that goes to 3000 or 4000. The kicker is it needs to have the stainless or nickel-plated brass 1/4 NPT post. I can find cheap brass gauges all day long. I determined that at one time SPAN made these gauges. The ones I have say Pacific Scientific. These gauges are also found on Parker Veriflo regulators. If all else fails, I'll likely order two matching USG stainless gauges from jandrweldingsupply.com.
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29011.jpg


For my metering needle valve, I'm using something a little different: The Parker HR Series Metering Valve, Part number 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC. I've heard of one other person using this Parker valve, but I couldn't find any pics of the build. If there are any others using this valve, I'd like to hear from you and your thoughts (and see pics of your build). I got this valve listed as New for cheap. I looked up the unit's specs based on the part number, and it has a nice flow curve which you can see, below. It is close to the ideal valve. ;) There is another rare model known as the HR0 that would be perfect, but it would be too expensive unless one could find it on an auction site, and that isn't likely.
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29012.jpg


You may be curious about how the knob operates. It's slick. The metering valve has a resolution of 15 turns to full open. The knob is marked with 10 steps per 360 degree rotation. As the knob completes each 360 degree rotation, the turn counter automatically increments or decrements one. Think of this relationship like a second hand to a minute hand on a clock. Every rotation of the second hand causes the minute hand to increment. Every rotation of the control knob toward open causes the turn counter to increment one. The threads on this knob are superb and extremely fine. Theoretically, with 10 steps per full rotation, and 15 rotations to full open, this provides 150 repeatable positions. If you look closely, you can see that it actually has half-positions on the control knob, so that would provide 20 steps and would provide +/- 300 repeatable positions. In reality, it won't be that accurate, but it will still provide an easy reference point for setting the bubble count.
Go-Cyl-20-Regulator-Build-2012-July-29014.jpg


That's all for now. Once I find my replacement high side gauge, I'll pressure test the unit and then order the stainless fittings and solenoid to complete the build, and continue the build log.
 
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SaltyNC

Junior Poster
Jul 27, 2012
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I found a high side gauge by WIKA that was very similar to the design of this one, and I was just about to go with that, but then I finally found the company that made the gauges on my regulator and ordered a replacement high side gauge from them this afternoon. It should be in soon, and then I'll get this build back underway.

Here is the company that makes these gauges for the GO line.
http://www.precisionpressuregauges.com

JS
 

David

Prolific Poster
Jun 21, 2012
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Good build so far, looking forward to your assembly. What are you going to be using for a solenoid? The Burkert 6011 stainless with buna-n seals would match nicely. I'll be ordering one soon if you needed a link to buy one.
 

SaltyNC

Junior Poster
Jul 27, 2012
25
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1
David,

Thanks so much. I am still undecided on the solenoid. I was thinking it might be fun to build an all-Parker kit, and I do have a Parker solenoid I picked up for next to nothing that works, but those suckers get so hot. The one I have is the 7000 line, so it's also rather large and heavy. I really like the look and coolness (temp) of the Clippard Mouse, but I'm aware of the issues the 10-32 port poses. I wish Clippard made a 1/8" NPT Inlet to 1/8" Outlet NPT manifold. That would be great. I contacted them and tried to convince them it would be a great idea to offer that. ;) I may just bite the bullet and buy the Burkert in stainless.

John
 

David

Prolific Poster
Jun 21, 2012
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Woodstock, Ontario, Canada
The clippard solenoids caught my eye initially because they are very reasonably priced. However the wisdom I've absorbed from Tom, Left C, Matt F and a number of other contributors here tells me that the clippards are really a gamble because they have a tendency to fail...A quick search on this forum and TPT can back this up. My rig is stainless as well so I'm getting the Burkert with buna seals for its reliability, resistance to outgassing and of course the sweet look to match my reg and needle valve :highly_amused:
 

SaltyNC

Junior Poster
Jul 27, 2012
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Are you getting yours from Freshwater Systems? The Burkert office in Charlotte is literally about 3 blocks from my office near a great little Thai restaurant. :)

John
 

oldpunk

Guru Class Expert
Dec 1, 2009
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David;86041 said:
The clippard solenoids caught my eye initially because they are very reasonably priced. However the wisdom I've absorbed from Tom, Left C, Matt F and a number of other contributors here tells me that the clippards are really a gamble because they have a tendency to fail...A quick search on this forum and TPT can back this up. My rig is stainless as well so I'm getting the Burkert with buna seals for its reliability, resistance to outgassing and of course the sweet look to match my reg and needle valve :highly_amused:

I just want to clarify something here. The Clippard Maximatic solenoid with 1/8npt ports is the solenoid with issues. Ever since they since they started making them in China, there has been a very high amount of reported mechanical fails.

Their mouse solenoids on the other hand work great. I've used and built a pretty large number of regs with them and haven't had a single problem yet. Obviously the fact that you have to deal with at least one 10-32 port kinda sucks but there is a way to make that connection pretty strong. Here's a pic of how it turns out:

DSC_0017-5-1.jpg


I try really hard not to compare the mouse solenoids to Burkerts. They are two different types of solenoids and work a little bit differently. If you want to build a reliable reg on a budget, a mouse is a great way to go. If you are clumsy, accident prone, or just don't want to worry about your reg falling over (which it never should since you should have your tank strapped to something...) go with a Burkert.

On a side note, you can also eliminate the whole issue of having to mount a needle valve after your manifold mouse by mounting the mouse after the needle valve. No one ever does it, but there's no reason you can't. (It's just not how we're used to seeing it done.) I'd also like to point out that pretty much all of the issues folks have when using a mouse and breaking a 10-32 fitting is related to Clippard part [HASHTAG]#11999[/HASHTAG]. That part just not intended to hold any weight or survive a pretty good bump. When you use Clippard part # 15453 (SS, not brass and can't be bent bent when assembled properly) the connection is much stronger. If you've seen a gla reg with a NV-55 on it, that's the part Orlando is using to attach the needle valve to the solenoid. When's the last time anyone has heard of a gla reg falling apart? (You won't because they don't...)

Sorry about the thread jack :( [/rant]

Edit - oh, I forgot, @ the OP, that is a medium flow valve. You will find that you don't have the 'resolution' you expected with that valve. You really want the valve to max out at 0.005(or there about)cv. Not 0.02. That thing will barely be cracked open but still work.

DSC_0017-5-1.jpg
 
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Matt F.

Lifetime Charter Member
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May 30, 2009
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The one thing I hate about the clippard mouse solenoids is the messy looking electrical connections. Just not clean looking at all, imo. Burkerts come with an 18/3 gauge 3 prong plug you can plug in your wall. The messy connections of the mouse coupled with 10-32 fittings, and, well, I'll pass. ;)
 

SaltyNC

Junior Poster
Jul 27, 2012
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Oldpunk, thanks for the clarification on the Mouse. I am curious about your statement about the metering valve I have. Can you help me understand this better?

I have the HR3 series of the Parker HR metering valve, and when I look at the flow chart for this meter (originally posted), it shows that it takes 14 full turns to get to 0.019 Cv and 15 full turns to get it to around 0.02 Cv. The Ideal needle valve I see recommended most often has a Cv of 0.019 at full open, which is I think somewhere around 24 turns. Clearly, the Ideal has more resolution for the same flow, but how is the Parker a medium flow when at full open it is almost the same as the Ideal?

In looking at the Parker graph, it takes about 5 full turns of the knob to reach 0.005 Cv with this valve. I can't tell on the Ideal graph how many turns it takes to reach 0.005, because the Y-axis graduations aren't fine enough to discern that level of detail.

If the desired bubble rate can be achieved within the first turn, that will still be plenty of precision for me. I'm currently using an Aquatek cheap needle valve, and it has so far performed flawlessly and is easily set, so I imagine I'll see anything as a vast improvement, but I'm just curious if I'm looking at the graph incorrectly, or would this particular model of Parker valve be fine, after all?

Thanks!
 

oldpunk

Guru Class Expert
Dec 1, 2009
427
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Matt F.;86150 said:
The one thing I hate about the clippard mouse solenoids is the messy looking electrical connections. Just not clean looking at all, imo. Burkerts come with an 18/3 gauge 3 prong plug you can plug in your wall. The messy connections of the mouse coupled with 10-32 fittings, and, well, I'll pass. ;)
I never said it was the best option. I just wanted to make it clear that it 'is' an option. Clippard makes a nice wiring harness if you don't like the push push on connectors. You never see anyone using it. Looks like this:

ET-C48.jpg


SaltyNC;86152 said:
Oldpunk, thanks for the clarification on the Mouse. I am curious about your statement about the metering valve I have. Can you help me understand this better?

I have the HR3 series of the Parker HR metering valve, and when I look at the flow chart for this meter (originally posted), it shows that it takes 14 full turns to get to 0.019 Cv and 15 full turns to get it to around 0.02 Cv. The Ideal needle valve I see recommended most often has a Cv of 0.019 at full open, which is I think somewhere around 24 turns. Clearly, the Ideal has more resolution for the same flow, but how is the Parker a medium flow when at full open it is almost the same as the Ideal?

In looking at the Parker graph, it takes about 5 full turns of the knob to reach 0.005 Cv with this valve. I can't tell on the Ideal graph how many turns it takes to reach 0.005, because the Y-axis graduations aren't fine enough to discern that level of detail.

If the desired bubble rate can be achieved within the first turn, that will still be plenty of precision for me. I'm currently using an Aquatek cheap needle valve, and it has so far performed flawlessly and is easily set, so I imagine I'll see anything as a vast improvement, but I'm just curious if I'm looking at the graph incorrectly, or would this particular model of Parker valve be fine, after all?

Thanks!

I'm not really good with charts and explanations but I'll give it a try. (I'm also much good with computers as I couldn't figure out how to steal a couple pics from a pdf...)

Take a look at this:

http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-142.pdf

Scroll down the page and find the cv charts. Look at and compare the 'm' series and 's' series. I have experience with both. I know that with the 's' series at about 1 turn open, about 0.00025, (probably a little more, I'm too lazy right now to go and figure it out under the fish tank) it's roughly 1 bubble per second. With the 'm' series, you're really just cracked open and don't really have a whole lot of control. If you open up the 's' series to 0.004 (full open) the co2 is really rippin', for lack of better explanation. I would wager you'll have less than a 1/4 of turn of the HR3 before it's just way too much.

ET-C48.jpg
 
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SaltyNC

Junior Poster
Jul 27, 2012
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Oldpunk, I really appreciate the explanation. I didn't realize that 1 BPS related to such a tiny amount of flow. I was assuming (yeah, I know :) ) maybe 0.0025 not 0.00025 would be about where I would need to be. The Parker HR1 would be much better than the HR3. I zoomed in on the graph, and I think your estimate sounds right. It appears it takes about 1 full turn to reach 0.001 Cv, so 1/4 turn should yield the 0.00025 figure.
 

oldpunk

Guru Class Expert
Dec 1, 2009
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Ya, it really depends on what psi you're running, but @ about 20 or so, its pretty typical. You also have to remember that with those verneir handles, it relates relates differently at different psi.
 

Left C

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Sep 26, 2005
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Very nice build!!

I purchased some of those style of Parker metering valves a while back, but I have never used them. I can not remember the model number that I have. It is good to know that yours works so well.

BTW, according to Rex Grigg, the Clippard Maximatic solenoids have always been made in Chine. He told me that he was one of the first customers for them. But, I have no idea why the quality of the Clippard Maximatic solenoids went from very good to very bad. I do not know what changed to cause this.
 

kevmo911

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Oct 19, 2010
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I've been testing a handful of valves over the past few weeks. I've had a few of the HR3's, but hadn't tested them yet.

My process was to set my reg (SGT160C for this experiment) to 10psi, run a solenoid (currently a 4watt CDK) and metering valve through about 3 feet of 1/4, 1/8 tubing into a JBJ-style bubble counter with no tube connected to the nut on the top cap. I opened the valve up to the point where I got 1bps, and then measured the fractions of a turn it took to get to the point that I could no longer count by eye or ear (approximately 6bps). The only real back pressure is the installed check valve in the bubble counter, and I tested with two new bubble counters and got identical results. I checked Swagelok 21 and 22 series (both), Hoke 1300 (3 degree needle, not 1 degree yet), both an older and newer Swagelok M series (*HUGE* difference between the two), and one or two others. Still have 7 or 8 types to go, but the newer M series was the clear winner at more than half a turn from 1 to 6 bps. I've been generally extremely disappointed at the results, especially for the 21/22 series valves.

Anyway, based on those results, knowing that they all have respectable Cv's and room for long, gently tapered needles, my first thought when I saw your video was that you clearly have a leak. In fact, I was going to post that after I saw your vid yesterday.

And then I thought, "hey, I have some of those, why don't I test them out so I can prove this guy wrong." So I did.

And you're right. My result was something like 1 1/2 full turns to go from 1 to 6 bps, and I'm honestly stunned. You made a fantastic choice with that valve. Well done, sir!
 

iani

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Oct 1, 2011
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I was quite surprised as well. What other valves do you have to test?
 

Left C

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Are you testing any of the "S" series Swageloks, the Ideal "1" series and other low flow metering/needle valves.

Also there is something weird about Swagelok's "M" series of metering valves. Some will work for our use and some have too much flow. I never got a handle on this before entering retirement.
 

kevmo911

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Oct 19, 2010
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Left C;88616 said:
Are you testing any of the "S" series Swageloks, the Ideal "1" series and other low flow metering/needle valves.

Also there is something weird about Swagelok's "M" series of metering valves. Some will work for our use and some have too much flow. I never got a handle on this before entering retirement.

Yes, I did an S late last night and have a tentative result. I don't have an Ideal, as that would represent twice the amount of money I've ever spent on a single valve, so I'll hope somebody will lend me one. And I have some info and a theory on the M's. And more valves to test.

In any case, I'll start a new thread, maybe tonight, with results and update as necessary. Salty, sorry for the threadjack. Please continue!
 

oldpunk

Guru Class Expert
Dec 1, 2009
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Those parker h3s are on eBay for $25 right now. I just bought a couple. Comes right up if you search Parker h3.