Fish illness, co-morbid infections, my fish need your help!

Biollante

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36-ml of 1% KMnO4 solution to your tank

ShadowMac;81077 said:
just to be sure I have this right...

I use 2 ml of the 1 L KMnO4 solution that contains 10 g KMnO4 and add that to the tank. Correct? monitor for a color change over the course of the next 4 hours.

EDIT: I added that and it had to be way too little, as I started to suspect...it did not change the color long and dissipated til I could not see it. Should I really be adding 181 ml of the solution since my tank is approximately 181 liters?

Hi Shawn,

By my calculations, you should add 36-ml of 1% KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB] solution to your tank. (Actually it works out to 36.2-ml.)

Add another 36-ml of 1% KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB] solution to your tank any time the water goes murky, brown, yellow or suddenly clears before the 4-hours are up.

Biollante
 

ShadowMac

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my chemistry skills have gone out the window and it appears they took my math abilities with them....

Thanks, I dosed and will be monitoring my purple tank
 

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At 2-ppm A Nice Pink/Purple Is a Good Indicator of Low DOC- A Good Thing

Hi Shawn,

By my calculations, you should add 36-ml of 1% KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB] solution to your tank. (Actually it works out to 36.2-ml.)

You need to add 2-ppm that is [SUP]2-mg[/SUP]/[SUB]liter[/SUB], you have 181 liters X [SUP]2-mg[/SUP]/[SUB]liter[/SUB] = 362-mg.
Your 1% KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB] is 10,000-ppm that is [SUP]10,000-mg[/SUP]/[SUB]1000-ml[/SUB] = [SUP]10-mg[/SUP]/[SUB]ml[/SUB].
[SUP]362-mg[/SUP]/[SUB]1[/SUB] / [SUP]10-mg[/SUP]/[SUB]ml[/SUB] = 36.2-ml 1% KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB].

Add another 36-ml of 1% KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB] solution to your tank any time the water goes murky, brown, yellow or suddenly clears before the 4-hours are up.

Each time you add another dose, the 4-hour clock restarts.

If you add more than 36.2-ml 1% KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB], add dechlorinator till everything is a murky ugly brown and start over.

I know it can be confusing until you have done it a time or two.:)

Biollante
 

Biollante

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Not All That Bad... In Fact Not Bad At All!

ShadowMac;81083 said:
First addition was at 4:45, at 5:20 water was murky brownish yellow

damn....maybe I have some organics :D

Hi Shawn,

Actually it is good another 36-ml 1% KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB], it restarts the 4-hour clock.

Since this is a mature tank and the first time you have done this, even another restart is not bad.

Going past 6-ppm (3, 36-ml doses in this case) tends to indicate a problem; many times it is also the cure.
:cool:

Biollante
 

ShadowMac

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mature for its age...

I should have specified somewhere that this is actually my newest setup...a 48 gallon 90P that has been running for 4 months. So it is not that mature, filter media was from an old filter mulm added to substrate, so it could have matured quickly? Otherwise it was all new aquasoil.

If you were working on the premise this is my long standing 37 gallon...maybe I need to add more KMnO4?
 

Biollante

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Gives New Meaning To "In The Pink"

ShadowMac;81086 said:
I should have specified somewhere that this is actually my newest setup...a 48 gallon 90P that has been running for 4 months. So it is not that mature, filter media was from an old filter mulm added to substrate, so it could have matured quickly? Otherwise it was all new aquasoil.

If you were working on the premise this is my long standing 37 gallon...maybe I need to add more KMnO4?

Hi Shawn,

I was assuming an older tank.

The younger tank may well be “cured” by the PP alone.

Technically, you could start with more than 2-ppm KMnO[SUB]4[/SUB] and some folks do, as a margin of safety, 2-ppm is it for a tank with an assortment of critters and biological filtration established.

One of the things that sets PP apart from other oxidizers we could use is that as compared to Hydrogen peroxide (a stronger oxidizer) or Chlorine (a weaker oxidizer) is the way in which it (PP) attacks carbon bonds tends to be less harsh with the intermediary steps. Also, the pretty colors help us keep track of what is going on!

The reality is that beyond the introduction of the parasite there has to be more to this. Most tanks (perhaps all?) have these parasites; something triggered them to become something more…

You have posited as a stressor CO[SUB]2[/SUB], could be, I tend toward earthier possibilities.
:)

Still most of these diagnoses are principally conjecture, guesswork; thankfully, we only need to be close as most have the same basic cure/prevention. Sadly, some are simply not curable, it is best to set those aside and look at those that are. You are in the health field so it will come as no surprise that many determinations are process of elimination.

I think in another thread I suggested a process of quantification using Hydrogen peroxide to determine “pearling” points, of course that was finding Oxygen saturation points that could be quantified to look for ways to accomplish that.
  • This exercise is really no different, except we are adding the element of assuring or returning a variable or series of variables to a known “good range.” Sometimes that act is not only the test, but also the cure, or at least part of it.

The difference in our view is that really, we are not focusing on a particular individual (critter), we are looking at a system, and the tank is our patient.

Just know that every time it goes murky, it is time for another 2-ppm.
:gw

What will really frost you is once things are back as they should be and you find out 0.75-ppm can keep it in the pink for four hours.
:cool:

Biollante
 

ShadowMac

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Thank you for the help Bio.

From what i gather continuing with the PP dosing until I achieve that 4 hr mark? I have passed 3 doses.
 

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You Are Welcome! Keep On Keeping On!

ShadowMac;81090 said:
Thank you for the help Bio.

From what i gather continuing with the PP dosing until I achieve that 4 hr mark? I have passed 3 doses.

Hi Shawn,

Passing the 6-ppm (3-dose) mark is a fair indication of other problems.

Need to keep going until you get 4-hours…

Should it get too late, stop dosing, add or continue aeration, you can put the activated charcoal back in if you wish and continue dosing tomorrow.
It will through the calculation off a bit.

If you get to 10-ppm tonight, you may as well do another big water change tomorrow and wait a day and try again.

I know it is discouraging but you are making progress!
:)

Biollante
 

ShadowMac

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I got through 4 rounds, but had to head to bed. I did a large water change because I noticed fish going to the top. I'm guessing that the continued dosing began to stress the O2 in the system? The fourth dose lasted much longer than the others, however I do not know if it would have passed the 4hr mark.

Since it took quite a few rounds, what have I learned about the tank? what "other" problems is this indicative of?

I suspect the larger amount of organics could have come from plant melting and rot from the initial planting and periods of sub optimal growth? I usually don't have issues with lower leaves melting in L. aromatica, however in this tank it did it. Stuarogyne repens melted and has yet to bounce back fully..only periods of recovery. HC melt and little growth for a little while now. Flow shouldn't be an issue with the MP-10. I haven't had problems with algae which lead me to believe I have been limiting light too much, things have perked up with a longer lighting period of moderate intensity (30-40% power on the ATI). I almost welcome algae at this point so I can rule out light limiting. But these problems may be unrelated to the high organics and the nasty cases of nematodes.

The worms look like small short white hairs in an area of colorless scales on the electric blue rams...can't remember if I adequately described them earlier.


Moving forward, another round of PP or move on to the flubendazole?
 

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The Battle Is Not Yet Decided

Hi Shawn,

Make sure you get the tank to stay in the pink for 4-hours.
:)

You are just about done. The Flubendazole will further stress your critters and the system and you will need at least 2-rounds. Finishing out the PP will give the system its best chance at surviving without further complications.

I think the high dissolved organic materials (along with some not so dissolved organic material) are going to turn out to be the chief culprits, both in the infestation and the stress.

PP is a net user of oxygen while material is being oxidized, which is why extra aeration is recommended, at 2-ppm PP dosing will not on its own deplete oxygen to dangerous levels. Combined with the other things happening, along with the stress the critters may be under can add to the problem.

Earlier you mentioned that the Flubendazole was a dewormer intended for dogs.

Can you provide the label?

If you provide the brand name, I can find the label.
:)

Biollante
 

ShadowMac

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I'm a little concerned.. I just added PP again today after work. The tank went murky brown in a matter of 5 minutes
 

ShadowMac

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could the aquasoil have a high amount of matter to be oxidized? or driftwood? this is unexpected...
 
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ShadowMac

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The dewormer I spoke of is Safe Guard in red packaging. After looking at the label, it is actually fenbendazole....homologous, I think. Each packet contains 222 mg/g of fenbendazole. I think I dosed a tenth of that to a 29 gallon tank once with no ill effects to the shrimp. In higher dosages it is harmful to inverts.
 

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This is Learning, This is Interesting. Any Missing Gerbils?

Hi Shawn,

Are you using dechlorinators? :confused:Beyond label dosing at water change that is.

Just to be sure, you are not dosing any Hydrogen peroxide, Vitamin C, lemon juice, citric acid, sodium citrate, sodium thiosulfate, sodium bisulfite, antioxidants in general or anything you are not sure of.;)

I doubt it is the aquasoil I have highly enriched substrates, just PP’d a couple today, one fairly new, in fact.:)

The driftwood is a better suspect… Is it rotting? Bad driftwood can be a significant source of organic material. Remove the wood if that is possible without too much disruption. At minimum poke, probe, and see if anything gives way or shakes out.:)

Are all your critters, pets, neighborhood kids accounted for?:eek:

Something is going on.:)

It is also possible you have killed a significant number of unseen little critters; it may be these things are living in places other than your fish.

This might help explain the fish gasping as well.:)

Biollante
 

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We May Need to Think This One Through

ShadowMac;81131 said:
The dewormer I spoke of is Safe Guard in red packaging. After looking at the label, it is actually fenbendazole....homologous, I think. Each packet contains 222 mg/g of fenbendazole. I think I dosed a tenth of that to a 29 gallon tank once with no ill effects to the shrimp. In higher dosages it is harmful to inverts.

Hi Shawn,

The Safe Guard looks good and is indeed 22.2% (222 mg/g) Fenbendazole.:)

Is there a listing of “inactive ingredients,” something like Sorbitol?:confused:

Failing that, when you tasted it,:eek: did it taste sweet?:D

How many grams to a package?

Did you dissolve it first? How readily did it dissolve?:confused:

Biollante
 

ShadowMac

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the second dosage today seems to be holding the purple color much longer than any other time. we are making progress.

At the water change I did dose prime at double dosage because I saw fish were stressed. That may explain the quick reaction today? Other than that, none of the items you listed or anything I can think of similar. Oh, wait, I had used hydrogen peroxide a time or two in the initial month to zap some thread algae that was in some moss I had used. it wasn't that effective and I didn't like the moss there anyways, so it was removed. The driftwood is manzy wood from Tom. It was a lot of root structure that probably had rot to begin with. It soaked for a good month while I waited for the tank and stand. I would really like to avoid removing the wood. It was sturdy when I put it into the tank.

when i tasted it..really!? I wasn't that concerned about the mouth siphons :D haha! It does not dissolve readily. When I used it last it ended up more as a suspension because I ground it up after waiting so long for it to dissolve. There are 4 grams to a package.
 

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Fenbendazole Treatments

Hi Shawn,

Hydrogen peroxide used in the past is not a concern.:)

Go light on the Prime for the duration, though I doubt it had that much effect.

I should have mentioned stop feeding the tank, not so much for the PP as for the Fenbendazole treatments.:) We need your critters hungry.;)

Do you have plain gelatin?

Do your critters have favorite foods?
:confused:

My best guess is the net effect of your past Fenbendazole treatment depended entirly on how tasty the critters found the suspension.:rolleyes: Fenbendazole is simply not soluble in water and in this case, we need your critters to eat the stuff. :)
(To dissolve it, mix with grain alcohol (Vodka, Ever Clear, whatever), alcohol being miscible with water allows it into solution with water. We do not want to do that here.)

Edit Correction ########################### Edit Correction ######################

Essentially, you can dose the Fenbendazole Granules 22.2% (222 mg/g), 1:10 with the food, by weight. Actually, you can use slightly more (3%) Fenbendazole Granules 22.2% (222 mg/g) (so 1.03:10).
Edit Correction ########################### Edit Correction ######################


If the Safe Guard stuff isn’t sweet (it probably is since they want puppies to eat it), I would recommend powdered or baker’s sugar mixed in, my understanding is that sorbitol (sugar alcohol, used among other things as a mild laxative) is pretty much the standard filler for Fenbendazole anyway.:cool:

Biollante

Incorrect information edited out ***** Do Not Use ******
Essentially, you can dose the Fenbendazole Granules 22.2% (222 mg/g), 1:1 with the food, by weight. Actually, you can use slightly more (3%) Fenbendazole Granules 22.2% (222 mg/g) then food (so 1.03:1).

 
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ShadowMac

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2 more PP treatments today after work, didn't reach purple for 4 hours but again found fish stress limit and changed the water before bed. The duration has grown substantially, i'm wary to continue...

Can we conclude that the PP has done its job and whatever is preventing it from reaching the 4 hour mark may be something not harmful to the system? such as driftwood? I have not fed the fish for 2 days so they should be getting plenty hungry for some fenbendazole laced food.

I can purchase plain gelatin. I'm assuming this is for our medicated food concoction. Jello shots for fish! ...maybe some for me minus the fenbendazole and fish food.