This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. Dismiss Notice
  2. We are after as many aquarium plant images that we can get, doing so will assist us in completing the aquarium plant database.

    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
    Dismiss Notice

filter bacteria

Discussion in 'Aquatic Microbiology' started by detlef, Jan 19, 2009.

  1. detlef

    detlef Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    4:08 PM
    Found this in ADA's online AJ sukei vol.004:

    "...Trimming is needed in order to regulate the growth of the stem plants. However, an adjustment of the CO2 injection volume is something that people often forget to make afterward. Although the causes of declining aquarium condition and algae outbreak right after trimming may be the result of leaves that were sucked into the filter and an inadequate amount of liquid fertilizers, an excessive amount of CO2 could be one of the causes as well. Such an excessive injection causes the bacteria inside the filter to suffer from hypoxia and the filtering capacity to decrease. Therefore, after trimming, it is important to check the pH of the water with a Drop Checker or a pH test kit and inject the amount of CO2 that matches the demand of an aquarium..."


    Do they still think increasing CO2 amounts in the water column decreases available O2 and therefore suppresses growth of filter bacteria? What else could be the reason for this statement?

    Seems I'm calling for more info about what is impacting the well being of microorganisms in general and nitrifying bacteria in particular.

    Best regards,
    Detlef
     
  2. PK81

    PK81 Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    4:08 PM
    Filter bacteria carry out a process known as nitrification converting ammonia to nitrate. These bacteria are called autotrophs in that they use CO2 as a carbon source. Increasing CO2 should actually make them grow better. They also require oxygen as they are converting NH4 to NO3 hence the need for oxygen. Nitrifyers are however very sensitive to pH changes. This is a debated point. I have seen nitrification down to a pH of 6.0 - it slows and then picks up again. I would check the pH but remember CO2 will form carbonic acid which will decrease the pH possibly causing further problems. Hope this helps.
    PK
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,676
    Likes Received:
    644
    Local Time:
    4:08 PM
    I do not think they have a damn clue about bacteria and the amount of CO2 required and the O2 as well, to cause this, you'd have dead fish long long long before you'd impact bacterial growth rates.

    What can occur is that the bacteria google up to the O2 from all the decayed organic matter after a trim, or folks uprooted the plants, or the plants stop pumping as much O2 into the root zone, not from over doing the CO2.

    It has to get very low O2 for bacteria to have issues with hypoxia.

    A little background on micro will quickly tell you this.
    Refer to Reddy's new book on biogeochemicstry of wetlands, 2008 for more and other other line journals such aquatic microbiology, or David Sigee's book in also awesome.

    I'd not put too much faith in general ramblings from ADA's journal
    They really do not tell you much and then they do not give important details or citations either:rolleyes:

    I think what they are scared off are folks adding a lot of CO2, then removing all the plants that sequestered and took up the CO2. Fish health is more the issue, they are just guessing about the CO2 here however, trying to cover their bases etc, but not with any support.

    Who knows why they write some things, I have no clue on that one.
    If they said that, I'd certainly ask for why they think that and where's the evidence for support and how much the test it.

    Basic stuff when someone says something like that.

    Marine systems:
    Oceanography and Marine Biology, An ... - Google Book Search

    FW systems:
    http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/syllabi/610/Assignments/Injury_and_Acclimation_under_hypoxia_and_anoxia.pdf

    It seems they are also measuring just the water column, not the CO2 or Redox of the sediment, before and after trimming, that, not the water column, is where the bacteria are.

    Also, plants produce plenty of O2, even after cutting (but less so) to supply themselves as well as for bacteria. anyway, plants and fish would die long before bacteria are affected.

    ADA is just responding to whatever they think might help folks and focusing on good care and water changes and cleaning the filter afterwards, adjusting CO2 better etc, rather than excess amounts is likely the issue here.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  4. Gautam

    Gautam Prolific Poster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    4:08 PM

    Yes Tom, I think they are trying to refer to is that CO2 intake of plants post trimming might go down and if the CO2 rate is not adjusted then there can be excess of CO2 which might tip off the balance of the aquascape.

    Can this also cause an algal issue because of excees CO2 and excess nutrients (again I am guessing that nutrient uptake of plants might get hampered due to trimming)
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,676
    Likes Received:
    644
    Local Time:
    4:08 PM
    I see no reason why excess CO2 will cause algae, nor nutrients, we added plenty of nutrients and we can test this.

    The disturbance to the plants, now that can cause algae. Not nutrients/CO2.
    So minimal disturbances lead to less frequent algae, this is very observable in nature and in aquariums, ADA tanks particularly.

    Light minimal trimming etc, not all at once, fest or famine horticulture. Do the sections each week with recovery time before going after another part.

    Plants define and control the systems once they are well established.
    Not nutrients/CO2. We can add more CO2 and nutrients for example, and never get algae in such systems, however, if we disturb the plants too much, we can get algae.

    Big difference and one we can easily test and demonstrate the right/correct conclusion, not merely what we might be tempted to believe. If you never bother to test such hypothesis, you never get conclusive answers to such questions.

    This is the burning issue with aquarists. They speculate and then never test to see if what they say is true or not, instead, going along with old dogma from the past and modifying/watering it down here and there as other lines of evidence show such claims to be false.

    If nutrients and excess CO2 really cause algae, at what ppm and which nutrients are doing this? They do not say, none of these bozos ever say....................
    and that right there sends up the red flags. Because then you have some hard evidence to test and see, not belief or idle passing comments. You can also confirm and verify the ppm's and test methods to make sure the data is correct, not skewed due to poor testing.

    I need to be able to induce algae using these same things in a control tank that's otherwise fine to buy any of this crap. If you lack a simple control in a test, you have nothing to compare it to.

    You can say the tank looks nice, pretty, but you cannot say 2.0 ppm of PO4 causes algae when the other nutrients and CO2/light are independent.

    I can test that and see I do not get algae. I can add high CO2, to the point of fish related issues, without any algae issues(perhaps the tank is able to take up much more nutrients and the tank then becomes nutrient limited at higher CO2). But then such tanks are not independent and you have testing issues/error and confounding factors influencing your results and conclusions.

    You need to reduce the error, not add more to it. There are simple ways to do that so our feeble brains can make sense of things and come to a better understanding with a complex system.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  6. detlef

    detlef Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    4:08 PM

    A few times I had filters disconnected and sit for at least 12hrs. Since bacteria had been working perfectly fine afterwards I concluded that the microorganisms did not suffer much from low O2 levels.

    Thanks Tom for your thoughts and info on more research papers.

    Too bad whenever I emailed ADA for explanation or asked if they could back up their claims they did not reply.

    Best regards,
    Detlef
     
  7. paludarium

    paludarium Guest

    Local Time:
    10:08 AM
    Hi Tom,

    will excess CO2 cause hypoxia of the fish? Many local hobbyists believe that excess CO2 will interfere in O2 uptakes of the fish.

    Regards,
    Erich
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,676
    Likes Received:
    644
    Local Time:
    4:08 PM
    As you can, or any astute aquarist can, a few very simple observations appear to falsify such claims.

    When so called authorities cannot and do not respond to a direct question, that in itself is an answer:rolleyes: *If I do not know, I say so and propose a test and hypothesis that might answer the question. If so, then I respond.

    I think the issue with excess CO2 is nuts also, causing algae etc.
    Read the FW algae CO2 compensation points, they are less than 1ppm in most every case.

    If the CO2 is non limiting for plants and algae, why would it cause any algae?
    Translation issues are not an excuse, culture etc, Science and common sense are part of cultures, Japan is good there, few can argue that point. But some Western folks seem to try and imply that when I question and ask things.

    If common sense questioning things is rude, they better learn to live with me rude:cool: They are selling a product and pictures. If they cannot answer the folks they are trying to sell to, well.........this is not the customers being rude, it's bad customer service.

    Funny how things are when you look at it from this prespective.
    I support ADA on many aspects, but it does not mean if I disagree, I hate them, or if I agree with some things, that I am some loyalist.

    Same for any and everyone, you do not have to disagree 100% nor agree 100%.
    Only a nit wit would assume and imply that, eg, one lacking any common sense.



    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice