Festal

[GillesF]

Hi

Some people have been using this product in the Netherlands and it said to be revolutionary. I had a look at their website and found some interesting stuff.

Link: http://www.festal.nl/shop/index.php?action=extra&extra=A_unieke_meststof_uitgelicht&lang=NL (use Google Translate on the website to convert it to English)

They claim they use an optimal balance between elements so antagonism does not occur. But if I recall correctly, this antagonism effect is based on terrestrial systems and not aquatic systems?

And what about this (beware, translated by Google!) : "In particular, the very important for the leaf quality, together with the Calcium sulphate, phosphate and bicarbonate, insoluble compounds. for which the plant is not recordable!" ?
I didn't know there was a reaction between CaSO4 and PO4. The say they use a "special" type of Calcium. Can anyone elaborate on this?

Here's the breakdown of their fert: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jIYkrf-p77Y/UA2qBueGvII/AAAAAAAACXQ/YgSL9SbBJlU/s800/IMG_8146.JPG
(They advise to dose 5ml of this weekly on 100 liter)

Cheers,
Gilles

 

[Tom Barr]

Anytime someone claims rants and raves some New revolutionary product(you just have to buy and try it)........it's BS..................why?
Because this hobby is about GROWING and pruning plants.

If it does not grow plants, do not add it.

You are correct about the antagonism effect is based on terrestrial systems and not aquatic systems.
Further, such test can be done in emergent hydroponic culture easily, but then they do not have any impact on leaf/foliar uptake.

Calcium can be chelated, but it's not even needed as far as plants are concerned, they can chelate and get at various nutrients easily and sediment sources also.
The Ca++ in Lake Tahoe is VERY low, as are more northern and alpine lakes. There are plenty of plants, pondweeds etc growing very well at under 2-3 ppm of Ca++.
This Ca is also NOT chelated.
The product is not that special really.
The hype and a few folks who think they see miracles.....that's the only difference.

I've had massive differences in Ca and Mg and K+, and N and P over a long time frame.
The whole antagonism effect is baloney, I've never found any DIRECT support for it in my tanks.
In fact, I've found plenty of GREAT methods to falsify such claims.

The big issue with an all in one fert is Fe and PO4, not Ca and PO4.

Only a neophyte would FALL FOR THAT MARKETING.

Hoalgand's solution uses the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoagland_solution

You will note in the link, they suggest 1/4 to 1/5th dilutions for Aquatic plants, which is what Gerloff suggested in 1966.
1/5th is still fair rich compared to EI BTW.
The Fe is strongly chelated in the above solution, but not the Ca and PO4.

If it was some special thing, why do all the researchers not also modify and use the Ca++ Chelated forms?
They sell Ca chelated forms such as citrate a very weak chelator for vitamins etc, or Ca gluconate etc.
You can eat chalk also I suppose, not tasty though.

The Sprint 138 iron chelate....is EDDTA chelated which is a very red product and is for very high pH/alkaline soil.
Not much will break that bond like Po4.

Which is why they use it.

You might argue adding a DTPA and ETDA chelated or gluconate daily is best along with the all the in one solution.
Otherwise, Liebig's law of the Minimum applies here and many selling various fert routines always seem to walk and side step around this plant growth LAW.

 

[GillesF]

Tom, thanks for the info!

 

[Gilles]

Tom, what do you suggest they have used for Fe to keep it from bonding with PO4?

 

[GillesF]

It can be done with ascorbic acid or even lemon juice if I remember correctly.

 

[Gilles]

Strange, because i add ascorbic acid to my trace mix This would mean that you could mix my trace mix with PO4 without problems
Interesting, i learn every day

 

[GillesF]

Since you're at the source: try it and see what happens

 

[Tom Barr]

As long as the pH of the fert mix is low, and the KH/alk is also low, this is not an issue.
Vinegar is likely better as an acid.
Add the acid 1st, then add wait a 1-2 min, then add the ferts.

I would use DTPA and/or a little bit of the 138 EDDHA.

 

[GillesF]

Hi Tom

Festal advices to dose 5 ml on 100 liter/week. How much Fe ppm would that give for their micro-fertiliser? I don't understand their breakdown: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jIYkrf-p77Y/UA2qBueGvII/AAAAAAAACXQ/YgSL9SbBJlU/s800/IMG_8146.JPG

 

[Tom Barr]

Says 25 umol of Fe...........that's not much. I assume that is what each "dose" adds?


Iron has an atomic weight of 55.847g/mol, which is the same as 55.847mg/mmol

I'd get something else personally.

 

[Biollante]

No Intention to Offend, Be Funny Or Violate Any Other Stupid Rules

Hi Gilles,

Sorry if my pm’s added to the confusion “they” do not like me answering posts based on anything other than title and I am absolutely prohibited from referencing any other information a poster may provide. :disillusionment:

“Deze complete mix bevat bij een EC van 2,4 minimaal” that I translate as “This complete (blend?) mixture contains an EC of 2.4 minimum.” I assume the “EC of 2.4” refers to enzymes, Glycosyltransferases, which are responsible for the transfer of sugars.

• I do not understand in this context what “minimum” means.
• Is this the magic? A little more.

Or is EC 2.4 some legal reference? On the bottle, anywhere does it say what a dose is?

• I may simply not understand Dutch/EU labeling.

In the Netherlands, would it be “normal” to list the ingredients, per dose rather than total content?

Previous pm.

Hmmm...Ooohh Thinking Hurts

Hi Gilles, Hmmm… Not to mislead but I calculated the 1.5-ppm from UNIQUE fertilizer Festal ® featured

• Festal ®

Some advantages of Festal ® products As an example we festal ® agua fe + +: - The product is concentrated. 5 ml in 300 liters of water increases the iron with 0.50 mg per liter - Chelated with the youngest generation of chelates (stable pH 3-9) - UV-resistant - 2-worthy chelated - Readily absorbed through leaves and roots - Made in Holland ​

Since it lists, “5-ml in 300-liters of water increases the iron with 0.50 mg per liter.”

• Since [SUP]1-mg[/SUP]∕[SUB]L[/SUB] = 1-ppm
• 5-ml in 100-liters of water increases the iron with 1.50 mg per liter
• Which is 1.5-ppm

However reading the label seems to me to say the concentration is 25-µmol/liter. Since the way I read Dutch labels may not be correct and it may mean 25-mmol/liter, assuming that:

• Since the molecular weight of iron is 55.8452,
  • therefore 1 mole of iron is 55.8452-grams
• 25-mmol Fe= [SUP]1-mol[/SUP]∕[SUB]1,000-mmol[/SUB] X 25-mmol Fe X [SUP]55.8452-g[/SUP]∕[SUB]mol[/SUB]
  • = 1.39613-g Fe
• Since there are 1000-mg per gram
  • 1.39613-g Fe = 1.39613-g Fe X [SUP]1000mg[/SUP]∕[SUB]g[/SUB]
  • = 1,396.13-mg Fe
  • 1396.13-mg per liter Fe = 1396.13-ppm Fe
• Therefore 5-ml of 1396.13-[SUP]mg[/SUP]/[SUB]L[/SUB] Fe solution would be
  • 5-ml X [SUP]L[/SUP]/[SUB]1000-ml[/SUB] X [SUP]1,396.13-mg Fe[/SUP]∕[SUB]L[/SUB]
  • = 6.98065-mg Fe
• So, 6.98065-mg Fe into 100-liters is:
  • [SUP] 6.98065-mg Fe[/SUP]∕[SUB]100-L[/SUB]
  • 0.0698065-[SUP]mg[/SUP]∕[SUB]L[/SUB] Fe
• Since [SUP]mg[/SUP]∕[SUB]L[/SUB] = ppm
  • 0.069085-ppm Fe

It seems based on the label 5-ml of Festal into 100-liters of water raises the iron content about 0.07-ppm. I do not understand how the website finds “5 ml in 300 liters of water increases the iron with 0.50 mg per liter” (that would be 0.5-ppm).

Biollante

 

[Tom Barr]

Something does not add up really.

A suggested dose of say 0.06ppm of Fe seems about right for most conservative dosing labels.

Please note, that there has only been one Scientific study I could find for many years that tested Growth rates and uptake of Fe using Fe ETDA and only for species of plant: Hydrilla.
The result suggest that the max growth rate was at 6.0 ppm and the max uptake was found at 8.0 ppm..........

Which is 60-80X higher than what most hobbyists suggest.

Even if other plant vary by say 600-800%, they are still off by 10X.

I typically suggest about .25-.5 ppm per dose and maybe 1-2 ppm over the week.

 

[GillesF]

Do you have a link to that study, Tom?

*edit* This one? http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304377077900390

 

[Tom Barr]

Yes, Haller's student did this I think.

We only add about 1/4 of this but we have less light and generally slower growign plants and we add smaller amounts, but meter it in often, whereas I think.......I could be wrong, that the dose was applied once and then post grow out was observed. I do not think they maintained a 6 ppm residual. I'd have to go dig the paper out I have the entire one here somewhere.

 

[GillesF]

Hi Gilles, Hmmm… Not to mislead but I calculated the 1.5-ppm from UNIQUE fertilizer Festal ® featured

• Festal ®

Some advantages of Festal ® products As an example we festal ® agua fe + +: - The product is concentrated. 5 ml in 300 liters of water increases the iron with 0.50 mg per liter - Chelated with the youngest generation of chelates (stable pH 3-9) - UV-resistant - 2-worthy chelated - Readily absorbed through leaves and roots - Made in Holland ​

Since it lists, “5-ml in 300-liters of water increases the iron with 0.50 mg per liter.”

• Since [SUP]1-mg[/SUP]∕[SUB]L[/SUB] = 1-ppm
• 5-ml in 100-liters of water increases the iron with 1.50 mg per liter
• Which is 1.5-ppm

Hi Biollante, shouldn't this be 0,16ppm?

 

[Biollante]

Since This Will Likely Be Deleted I Will PM This As Well

Hi Gilles,

Short answer, no, I think you solved for “x” and ended up dividing by “3.”

• Remember the amount of iron does not change; the concentration changes. Since there is ⅓ as much solution, the concentration must be 3-times greater.
  

Another way of looking at this is that if there is [SUP].5-mg Fe[/SUP][SUP]²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]l[/SUB], then in 300-liters there must be 150-mg Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP]. Since the amount of iron remains 150-mg in 100-liters (150-mg Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] ÷ 100-liters = [SUP]1.5-mg Fe²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]l[/SUB]).

Long answer.
No, based on the information on the link you provided UNIQUE fertilizer Festal ® featured, as translated by Google Translate seems (to me anyway) to say that an advantage Festal® has is that 5-ml dose in 300-lites of water adds 0.50-mg Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] per liter. Festal ®

“Some advantages of Festal ® products As an example we festal ® agua fe + +:
- The product is concentrated. 5 ml in 300 liters of water increases the iron with 0.50 mg per liter
- Chelated with the youngest generation of chelates (stable pH 3-9)
- UV-resistant
- 2-worthy chelated
- Readily absorbed through leaves and roots
- Made in Holland”

• Defining 1-liter as 1-kg (yes I understand that is only at 4°C and I am using density), since there are 1000-g in each kg, and 1000-mg in each gram that means there are 1,000,000-mg in 1-kg.
  • Substituting liter for kilogram, there are 1,000,000-mg per liter.
  • Therefore, 0.5-mg per liter can indeed be stated as 0.5-parts per million.

300-liters of solution are three times as much as 100-liters of solution.

• 300-l ÷ 100-l = 3
  

If 5-ml of something (Festal® in this case) in a solution raises Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] 0.50-mg per liter.
Then 5-ml of the same something in one-third the solution must raise the Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] 1.5-mg per liter.

Epilog:
I wonder if you noticed that Festal® statement” - The product is concentrated. 5 ml in 300 liters of water increases the iron with 0.50 mg per liter,” means that 5-ml Festal® must contain 150-mg of iron. Therefore, each milliliter of Festal® must contain 30-mg of iron, 30-grams per liter.

• [SUP]30-g Fe[/SUP][SUP]²⁺[/SUP]∕[SUB]l[/SUB] is 0.537-mol Fe[SUP]2+[/SUP] per liter or if you prefer 537-mmol per liter.
• Compare this to the label that appears to claim 25-mmol per liter.

Apologies to the Guru team… I am not trying to make you angry... It comes naturally... :05.18-flustered:
:05.18-flustered:
Biollante

 

[Biollante]

I Know This Is Outside My Guru Team Authorized Posting Limits…

Hi,

I had a question from someone wishing to remain anonymous (probably to avoid harassment by the Guru team) regarding the “short answer.”

Math is difficult in this format; I will link a scan of the longhand method.

How do you say "piss up a rope" in Dutch?

Biollante

 

[Gilles]

The the question is, they claim to have 2 sources of iron, right? My thoughts on this is that they use Ferrous gluconate (EDTA?) combined with DTPA iron or even a combination of DTPA + EDDHA iron?

 

[dutchy]

I had a question from someone wishing to remain anonymous (probably to avoid harassment by the Guru team) regarding the “short answer.”

Hi Bio,

Could you explain this assumption?

 

[Biollante]

Help Me With Translation from Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands to English

The the question is, they claim to have 2 sources of iron, right? My thoughts on this is that they use Ferrous gluconate (EDTA?) combined with DTPA iron or even a combination of DTPA + EDDHA iron?

Hi Gilles,

I do not know what the labeling laws are in the Netherlands, but based on the label I see no evidence of any other source of iron, beyond the 25-mmol per liter (actually I read it as 25-µmol per liter). I am assuming the Netherlands require truthful disclosure of ingredients.
• Perhaps a knowledgeable Nederlander could help us understand the label.

25-mmol Fe per liter is a little less than 1.4-g Fe per liter, which means that each milliliter delivers a little less than 1.4-mg of iron. If you add 1-ml Festal® to 999-ml of distilled water you should find about 1.4-mg of iron from all sources.

Even if the iron is chelated (actually I assume it is), it is iron. There may well be more than one source of iron, it still adds up to total iron.

I see no indication of the chelate.

The only thing I can come up with is that Festal® Complete, isn’t there must be at least two other components (products) to make these claims even close to accurate. Perhaps someone could post the label for Festal® Ca and Festal® Iron.

• Perhaps I misunderstand the translation
• I do not understand the 5-ml dose if

​

o Multiple products are involved.​

Perhaps someone can help me with the translation from Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands to English of:
• Feestelijke ®
• Enkele voordelen van Festal®producten Als voorbeeld nemen we festal®agua fe ++:
• - Product is geconcentreerder. 5 ml op de 300 liter water verhoogt het ijzer met 0,50 mg
• per liter
• - Gechelateerd met de jongste generatie chelaten (stabiel pH 3-9)
• - UV-bestendig
• - 2-waardig gechelateerd
• - Gemakkelijk opneembaar via blad en wortel
• - Made in Holland

I am truly curious about:
“Deze complete mix bevat bij een EC van 2,4 minimaal” that I translate as “This complete (blend?) mixture contains an EC of 2.4 minimum.” I assume the “EC of 2.4” refers to enzymes, Glycosyltransferases, which are responsible for the transfer of sugars.

• I do not understand in this context what “minimum” means.
• Is this the magic? A little more.
​

Or is EC 2.4 some legal reference? On the bottle, anywhere does it say what a dose is?

​

• I may simply not understand Dutch/EU labeling.

In the Netherlands, would it be “normal” to list the ingredients, per dose rather than total content?

Assuming EC2.4 (“EC” (Enzyme Commission number) 2 (transferases) 4 (Glycosyltransferases)) means Glycosyltransferases, my guess is that since Glycosyltransferases can be metal ion dependent this is the “next generation” chelate they are talking about.

Biollante