This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. We are after as many aquarium plant images that we can get, doing so will assist us in completing the aquarium plant database.

    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
    Dismiss Notice

Fablau 75 gallon tank

Discussion in 'Journals' started by fablau, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Local Time:
    7:05 AM
    Fab - Cuphea anagalloidea is closely related to Rotala and Ammannia. They will tip-stunt if they are unhappy, like their relatives.


    I would caution AGAINST jumping to any conclusion about why they stunt. It's easy to blame trace toxicity. But from what I've learned in my Kill Tank, these plants stunt for several reasons. Yes, unbalanced ferts (whatever that means) could be one reason why they stunt. I've managed to stunt them in BOTH high and low trace conditions.


    However, unlike Rotala, this plant has one additional bad habit: it will shed its lower leaves if macro nutrients are not right. Stunting and shedding aside, it has a strong will to survive as it is unkilled in the Kill Tank after all my shenanigans.


    My advice is to keep the plant as an indicator. It will frustrate you like wallichii does me. But you will learn from it...if you're into that sorta thing.
     
  2. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    2,417
    Likes Received:
    639
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Cuphea is also named rotala aragauaia


    note no mexicana in there
     
  3. rajkm

    rajkm Article Editor
    Staff Member Lifetime Member Article Editor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2015
    Messages:
    670
    Likes Received:
    216
    Local Time:
    7:05 AM
    I have Cuphea which is showing both, there is good stems with good color, besides stunted stems. I just move out the stunted stems and replant tops of good ones and its ok after that. The stunted stems go into my growout tank with aquasoil and they recover over there in some weeks.


    But if all stems are show the same signs, then I know something is wrong.
     
  4. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Of course I am into that! Thanks for helping and letting me know about that plant, I love "indicator" plants, they are invaluable to learn. In my case, I don't think they are stunting for too-high traces since I am dosing so little now, but maybe they are stunting for too low traces? This past week, despite the added Ca and Mg they haven't changed a bit. The tips are kinda "burned" as typical of micros deficiency. Tomorrow I will have my water change and I will try to put a few stems of it into a small pot with some ADA AQ and see how they'll do. I will do the same with a few stems of my cabomba furcata as well. Those are the two only plants struggling right now, even though I must admit that in general all plants have slowed growth in the past week, with the exception of the Ambulia which I guess is a real hog (it is currently just perfect!). Ludwigia Puerensis is growing very slow for example, whereas the AR variegated you gave me is growing pretty well and faster than the Ludwigia. The regular AR is growing (yes, with low-traces, they are growing) but very slow as well.


    I need now to understand if my current dosing of just 0.028 ppm Fe from CSM is beginning to cause deficiencies or if I still have room to work with the AR. As I said, my goal is to have all plants growing well, mostly AR, but their feedback is so slow that I must wait weeks to understand if I am in the right path or not.
     
  5. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Yes, as I said, in my case they are just stuck at the tips, which is usually a clear sign of trace deficiency if Co2 is ok. I will try to out some stems in a small pot with ADA AQ and see if. Ake's any difference. Thanks for your feedback.
     
  6. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Good to know, thanks!
     
  7. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Local Time:
    7:05 AM

    My Rotala Kill Tank operated for 3 months really well with half the traces you are currently dosing. That tank was at 0.015 ppm Fe from CSM+B. I call that dose The Burr. When I went to Half Burr, things went south. You are at Double Burr.
     
  8. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Yes, that's right Vin. That's why I wish to continue this experiment at least to reach the "regular Burr" dose... even though I use Eco Complete, which could have a higher CEC. Unless I clearly see more plants getting stressed by that, but I'd also like to have the certainty of it (hard thing!)


    If by putting Cabomba and Cuphea inside a ADA AQ pot improves their shape, that'll means something is missing from my water column dosing, and the only think could be traces. Do you agree with me?
     
  9. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Local Time:
    7:05 AM
    Aquasoil has a LOT more than traces. New aquasoil has a ton of ammonia. So you are not adding just traces. And that ammonia will help all the other plants as well.


    I think both Burr and I have shown that you don't need ANYTHING in the substrate to get good growth. Plants are fine taking in nutrients from the water. But if you give them nutrients in both - water and substrate - then they may do a little better.


    I'd be shocked if you are too low on traces at Double Burr. No harm in trying the aquasoil in pot test.
     
  10. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    I see what you mean. The AQ I'd use is already matured and so shouldn't leak too much ammonia... but I agree with you that I should have enough traces for now anyway, but why then some plants look struggling a little? Traces is the only element I have lowered in the past 2 months. Unless, as I said, my substrate sucks traces in some way more than just gravel or blast sand (I have Eco Complete).


    Your thoughts on that?
     
  11. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Local Time:
    7:05 AM
    I seriously doubt that mature Eco-Complete has the CEC required to bind so much that you're noticing trace deficiency.


    I hold my position that your tank needs fewer plants, more maintenance, and decreased competition. Reduce the number of stems by a third. Separate the plant groups by one or two inches. Keep stems short.


    I've kept my Kill Tank teetering on deficiency for 6 months. And that is a tank with inert gravel substrate and no fish and every dead leaf is scooped out. Yet, the plants do OK or hang on with half as much traces as you are providing. It is shocking how little traces most plants need to survive. The amount required to thrive is another matter. But at 'Double Burr,' I'd focus on something other than traces.
     
  12. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    I hear you Vin, I will pursue what you are suggesting. I have already halved plant mass of what I used to have until 2 months ago, and I will see what I can do further there.


    As for maintenance, I don't see what I could do more than this, with the exception of WC that I really cannot do more than once a week. My tank would probably need to be redone because of the substrate being too old and thick... but what could I do more maintenance wise?


    I will give an update of my tank in 1 week. Thanks.
     
    #52 fablau, Feb 18, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2017
  13. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Vin, just for the sake of discussion about "maintenance", here is my current maintenance schedule:


    1. 50% WC every week, 50% RO and 50% tap. After water change, I usually have a GH of 4-5 dH and a KH of about 1.5-2 dH, so I add about 1 extra dH of GH by adding 20ppm CaSO4 and 10ppm of Mg. The I dose macros.


    2. During water change, I clean the pre-filters of the sump (so, once a week), whereas I leave untouched the media bags inside the main sump chamber.


    3. During water change, I also vacuum about 20% of the substrate where I left the week before. I do that usually in the first inch of the substrate, but for the past 3 weeks I have been doing that deeply in some areas down to 3-4 inches (my substrate is old and deep).


    4. During water change, I spray H2O2 on BBA on equipment and slow growers. Not much though because otherwise my Vals melt. About 0.5 ml/gl


    5. Before water change, if I see a plant too tall, almost reaching the surface, I trim it.


    6. Every 2 weeks, I trim my plants strongly. My plants almost never reach the surface, unless I am out in vacation.


    7. Every 2 weeks I check the status of 2 purigen bags in the sump and eventually I regenerate them (I have been doing this for the past 4 weeks already)


    8. Every 3-4 months I flush the bio bags and the secondary sponge after the bio bags and before the pumps chamber, and I also flush all tubings (return pipe and Co2 loop pipes) and clean all reactors and cerges.


    What else should I do? Is this enough maintenance? Do you see anything wrong? Funny thing is that since I have been doing all this routine (a lot of work!), BBA got worse. Why in the heck is that??!! Should I do less? I am eager to know your thoughts, because it looks to me the more I work the worse results I get.
     
  14. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    1,294
    Local Time:
    1:05 AM
    You may be getting more bba now because you're stirring up a lot of organics deep vacuuming the sub. Sounds like a necessary task though, being so old and deep, so you may just have to deal with a little more bba until you get the whole sub cleaned.


    That is just a thought, may be entirely due to something else
     
  15. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Yes, I think so as well. I'll see if the situation will improve once done with that.


    One question for your Burr: my last 3 weeks dosing included about 0.05 ppm Fe in total per dose (about 0.15 ppm a week), and I noticed some plants having particularly light-green (almost white) new leaves. Does that ever happen to you considering you are dosing even less iron that me? I have increased DTPA this last week to give additional 0.02 ppm Fe per dose, and the same plants got a little bit more green, that's why I am asking you because it looks to me my plants may need more iron... but it's just a guess! What puzzles me is that red plants are still very red anyway.
     
  16. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    1,294
    Local Time:
    1:05 AM
    The same thing happens to me when Fe is too low, adding more usually fixes it.
     
  17. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Oh great to know that. Does that mean that you may dose more than 0.02 ppm Fe per dose?
     
  18. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    1,294
    Local Time:
    1:05 AM
    In general .02-.03 ppm 3x week works pretty well in my tanks
     
  19. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    623
    Local Time:
    11:05 PM
    Thank you Burr, this is helpful! I will give an update soon.
     
  20. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Local Time:
    7:05 AM
    Sounds like you are doing a lot of things right.


    Have you considered just tossing out some of the old gravel and keeping the substrate at 2.5 to 3 inches deep? Much easier to keep clean and free of organic gunk.


    In my tank, I get BBA only when I am away from home for a few weeks. Once I'm back from my travels, BBA disappears with regular maintenance, cleaning, and H2O2 sprays. GSA and GDA are usually absent when I'm away and return after I get back home. :) Mostly from too much tank (and plant growth) disruption.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice