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Fablau 75 gallon tank

Discussion in 'Journals' started by fablau, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Yes, tried different locations: no difference. It is really puzzling, isn’t it?
     
  2. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    UPDATE:

    Hello everyone, here I am with an update about my tanks's situation.

    As you may recall, the last update I decided to drop Mo, B and Cu from the trace mix... and that seems to have sorted some good results (at least with some plants!)

    Yes, Cabomba Furcata has finally recovered, I'd say at 90%:

    [​IMG]


    And Rotala Rotundifolia has put out very nice shots:

    [​IMG]


    Star grass also got new, long shots, as you can see from this group pic:

    [​IMG]

    From the same picture above, you can notice Ambulia on the right, still pretty stuck, not back to regular growth yet. Maybe it's just a matter of time?

    Interestingly, AR also got better, and put out new roots (always a good sign when plants have roots and put out new ones!)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    I am not sure if AR got better because of the absence of B, Mo and Cu from the mix, or just because the top leaves were closer to the light, and that helped... (more about light below...)

    So, it looks like the removal of those elements for the past 2 weeks, sorted an improvement, or at least, not a negative effect. Maybe really I had too much B or Mo? That could be... today I measured Cu with a colorimeter, and despite I haven't dosed Cu for the past 2 weeks (and after 2 water changes), I could still measure around 40 ppb. I have no way to measure B and Mo contents, but I'll monitor Cu in the coming days to see if that can be used as a proxy, at least as a relative measure, to give me an idea of how much still could have of the other 2 elements (Mo and B). The reasoning is pretty simple: If I see the content of Cu slowly going down, I can assume the same it is going to happen to B and Mo. And if really I had to much Mo (or B), I could slowly get back into the correct range and make more plants happy (just pure speculation seen this past 2 weeks results). Maybe the contents of those elements in my tap water is high enough.

    Also, I want to try to reduce the rest of the trace mix of 1/3, as follows, and see what's gonna happen:

    Fe DTPA 10% 0.1 ppm
    Mn 0.05 ppm
    Zn 0.04 ppm

    I still feel I am dosing too much iron, probably not needed (filters are always too dirty). Maybe the reduction of Zn could also be beneficial for Ambulia? Time will tell...

    Oh, another note: I have increased light a little bit, of around 20 PAR more... let's see if that's going to help with AR (from around 60 PAR, now it is getting around 80 right there)

    Eager to know your thoughts.

    Thanks for following ;)
     
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  3. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    UPDATE:

    Hello guys, and sorry for my long silence. I have been totally swamped with my job for the past couple of months, and I really couldn't find a minute to post anything here, despite I have continued my dosing experiments.

    During the month of May, I have tried to lower Zn to 0.01 ppm for 4 weeks straight, and I must say that that change didn't do anything to improve the situation, and anything to get it worse either. It looks like the change didn't have any effect at all. I also tried to remove and put back Mo with no differences. Still kept out Boron though.

    So, starting on June 8th, I tried to lower Mn, from 0.075 ppm to 0.03 ppm, and some plants got better. Mostly Cabomba Furcata, AR, Rotala Rotundifolia in this big tank, Rotala Nanjenshan and Ammania in the small 20 gl tank (I am dosing the same exact mix in both tanks). It is interesting how lowering Mn had a beneficial effect on the most trace sensitive plants such as the mentioned above (at least, in my and other people's experience).

    Interesting enough, Ambulia is still stuck (!!) and currently seems to be the only plant not growing correctly. Still puzzling why... but experimentation is not done yet. ;)

    Here are some pictures to document my past few weeks experiences, below...


    As you may recall, I tried to remove Cu for a while, but after a few weeks I started noticing some plants getting too white, like Limnophila Aromatica:

    [​IMG]

    Or Stauro:

    [​IMG]

    By putting back Cu at 0.001 ppm seems to have fixed that problem.


    Here is AR now, after have lowered Mn:

    [​IMG]

    Still not perfect, but better than before.

    Rotala Rotundifolia got better as well, new and fresh sprouts everywhere:

    [​IMG]


    Ludwigia Repens is growing pretty well, despite I am aware to have them redder I'd probably need more light (currently at around 70-80 PAR at the substrate):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    This shot gives you a good idea of how many new sprouts got out after 10-15 days of reduced Mn dosing:

    [​IMG]


    But Ambulia is still struggling, that plant really seems to be no longer able to grow well. It stunts all the time. It puts outs new sprouts that stop growing after a few days. Here is a detail of one of those stunting tips:

    [​IMG]

    No idea what's going on with that plant.


    Finally, here is an entire tank's shot, right before a long time needed trimming:

    [​IMG]


    In the overall, the situation has improved a lot. As I said above, most plants are growing well, Ambulia is actually the only one giving me trouble right now. But as I also said, I am not stopping here.

    My current daily trace dosing is the following:

    Fe DTPA 0.15 ppm
    Mn 0.03 ppm
    Zn 0.02 ppm
    Mo 0.0005
    Ni 0.0005 ppm

    And what I plan doing is to keep dosing this way until the next weekend, then it'll be over 5 weeks that I'll have dosed this way, and if I still won't see improvements in Ambulia or I see any deterioration, I'll try to put back a little bit of Boron (even though my tap should have plenty).

    Thoughts are always very welcome.

    Best,
     
  4. Slin

    Slin New Member

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    Great update and good to hear your thoughts on the dosing effects on the plants, tank looks tranquil- I love it!
     
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  5. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    I wish I had some words of wisdom for this one.
    I've never had it stunt, just gets long between nodes in lower light for me.
    Been a prolific grower for me but never branches @ a node, always new sprouts @ the base.
    Always been under a puck with 60 PAR @ substrate, I've never changed its location.
     
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  6. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Good update, very interesting

    Said this in the custom micro thread on tpt, I've also seen better results dropping Mn to a 3:1 Fe ratio instead of a 2;1. You're currently at 5:1, interesting.

    Im going to take it down a notch further when this mix runs out in about a week.

    Ambulia I think is a macro issue. Mine went through a phase where at least half would stunt badly. More K and PO4 solved it (NO3 was already high) The difference was swift and dramatic.

    Currently at 30/6/32 NPK per week.
     
  7. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    Update looking better overall, well done keeping at it.

    In relation to the Reinekii and our apparent similar issue, I got my water report back from our council and it contained quite a bit of boron.
    Once I removed boron from my dosing and waited almost 3 weeks I noted the growth was much less distorted and in most cases disappeared..
    I have added it back in my new set up and was fine but after nearly 2 months the leaf distortion is back so about to remove it from the micro dosing again which would hopefully confirm there's a Ca - B issue.
    I think you probably have more than one issue going on but it appears the leaf stunting has been solved which is great. But, if you add Boron back it will be a good test to see how it deteriorates if at all over a month and hopefully we find a similar result.
     
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  8. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Slin, appreciated! I'll try to update more often in the coming weeks ;)
     
  9. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I see what you mean, I used to grow it like a weed with half light. No idea what's going on with that damn plant. We'll figure out!
     
  10. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Joe, I know, 5:1 is pretty extreme, I went that low to see if actually made any difference, and it did. Maybe 3:1 or 4:1 will work fine as well, and I'll try that later on.

    As for Ambulia, I might try to increase Po4 a little bit, here is my current macro dosing:

    On water change day (front dosing):

    N: 18.36 ppm
    K: 24.22 ppm (from KSO4 and KNO3 combined)
    P: 1.39 ppm


    On the 3rd and 5th day of the week:

    N: 7.34 ppm
    K: 5.89 ppm (from KSO4 and KNO3 combined)
    P: 0.7 ppm

    Week totals:

    N: 33.04 ppm
    K: 36 ppm (from KSO4 and KNO3 combined)
    P: 2.79 ppm



    As you can see, the only one pretty low is P... I lowered it about 6 weeks ago after I read your thread where you mentioned lower P giving better results, and I aven't seen any difference in my case. Ambulia was stuck anyway before when I had almost double than that. But I could try to increase that one now that traces are different, and see if it makes any difference. What concentration would you suggest trying? I see you dose 6 ppm of P a week, maybe I could try a little more than that do give that plant "no more excuses"? Maybe something like 8 ppm a week? Or could that be a shock for other plants?

    Thanks!
     
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  11. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Yes, it looks like I am having your same exact experience. It looks like I need to try increase P before trying to increase Boron (see my previous posting). But I am willing to try everything, just one change at a time, which requires a heck of a time... thank you for your thoughts, appreciated!
     
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  12. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    I'm about ready to mix a new batch of micros, and will try Mn at 4:1 (currently at about 2:1) and see what happens.

    Ambulia in my tank is under very high light, well over 200 when plants are near the surface. My macro dosing is rich, with P at about 8ppm per week single dose right after water change. Grows like a weed and heads are very good sized. So yeah, might be worth upping macros a bit to see what happens.
     
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  13. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Greg. I must definitively trying to increase P, I might have overlooked that for a while... and I think I'll try 8 ppm a week as you are doing, even with just one single dose after WC.

    Thanks a lot!! And of course, I'll keep you posted :)
     
  14. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    UPDATE

    Here I am after 3 weeks of testing higher P (at 8 ppm a week) and actually something changed... more growth in most plants, some are growing super-ultra-fast like Cabomba Furcata and Ludwigia Repens that had an exceptional growth.

    Here is my tank BEFORE the trimming last day, like a forest, I needed to give it a good trim:
    [​IMG]

    Here is a detail of Cabomba Furcata despite I had to keep it at bay every 4-5 days because otherwise would have been 3x longer:
    [​IMG]

    It looks like P needs to be "saturated" in a similar way as Nitrogen. I thought to get away with something like 3 ppm of P a week (I thought, "That's well enough!"), but I was wrong.


    Rotala Rotundifolia also had great growth:
    [​IMG]

    Ludwigia Repens became a monstrosity, ready to come out of water:
    [​IMG]


    AR a little bit more growth, but not too much. This plant always gives me trouble, and I am wondering if I should try to lower my Zn level a little bit to see if it'll react any better? Or should I lower Mn even more? Time will tell (see below...)...
    [​IMG]

    Good news is the at least one stem of Ambulia seems to be gotten right (Finally!), it was like "waking up from hibernation":
    [​IMG]

    We'll see if that stem holds and keeps growing well and I'll be able to replicate it. Hopefully that plants is on the right route, and if so, that means that it was lacking P!!


    Aromatica also got much better and healthy:
    [​IMG]


    Here is a full shot AFTER the trimming:
    [​IMG]

    A detail of the right side after the trimming:
    [​IMG]

    A detail of the left side after the trimming:
    [​IMG]

    And here is a detail of the nice Cabomba Furcata which I can consider the winner of this experiment (lower Mn and Higher P seems to have helped this plant to become perfect):
    [​IMG]


    So, what's my plan now? I plan to keep macros this way and try to lower Zn a little bit to see if that makes any difference in AR. That's still the worst plant after all. Knowing it is sensitive to micros, we'll see if that makes any difference. After that, I am willing to try to lower Mn even further. No idea why other folks like @burr740 or @Greggz can keep very high level of Mn having great results, but in my situation seems that too high Mn halts plants growth a great deal... maybe I have already Mn in my water? Or does it interacts with something else like Fe in a different way? As Greggz always says: "Any tank is different". And I think he's 100% right!

    My advice: start from a basic, working model like the awesome Burr's micro mix, and then adapt it to your needs and your situation. Look how your plants react, wait 2-3 weeks between any changes, and make sure to make "a change at a time" so you are sure what made a difference (if any)... never assume anything as written on stone.

    We'll give you a new update in 2-3 weeks.

    Thank you folks!
     
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  15. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Well Ive been seeing a lot better results since lowering Mn to around 1:4 Fe. In retrospect I dont think 2:1 is the best ratio for our aquariums

    Also not surprised higher P is helping. Over the past 4-5 months I've slowly gone from 3-3.5/week to now around 7 and things are clearly better. It solved a lot of nagging little issues I used to blame on micros.

    Tank is looking SWEET btw. That last fts is probably the best Ive seen it
     
  16. aclaar877

    aclaar877 Junior Poster

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    Fab, appreciate you testing out the different fert ratios. Especially your findings on PO4 - I have a few varieties that seem stuck - not stunting, not shedding, but just not growing either and collecting a little GDA on lower leaves. I had thought I had too much PO4 relative to other macros, but that may not be the case. I'll have to get over the mental block of adding that much P, but it's worth trying!
     
  17. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Burr, I really appreciate your words.

    Glad to know you have had similar observation regarding Fe:Mn ratio, in my case that's been key, and so the increase of P.

    We'll keep experimenting and discovering what's best for our tanks. Another important aspect is the "rate" healthy and happy plants grow. It is amazing how my Cabomba has actually doubled its growth rate just because of the increase of P.

    Thank you!
     
    #557 fablau, Jul 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2018
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  18. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Andy!

    Yes, I think we all have these pre-concepts about ferts that go back to the 80's (in my case, at least), and we are afraid to increase them, even just to test if make any difference. The secret actually is to NOT be afraid. Please, try to increase P to at least 6ppm and let us know if you see any difference.

    Thank you again :)
     
  19. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    First of all great update. Like Burr said, tank is looking better than ever, so nice work!

    And I'm also not surprised you are seeing improvement with higher P. I've tried lowering P many times, and every time I end up going back to high P dosing. I just know my tank does better with it, and it looks like yours too. Nothing noble about lowering ferts, just give 'em what they want!

    And I have also lowered my Mn by half. So roughly 1:4 like Burr. Also upped my B and lowered Zn slightly. Maybe a combination of all but tank seems better than ever.
     
  20. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks Greg, appreciated! Yes, I think I need to keep P high in my tank as well. The difference is too much on the positive side.

    Please, keep us posted with your lowering of Mn, the balance of traces is where we all are focusing right now... and I am sure we'll find the perfect recipe soon! :)
     
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