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Fablau 75 gallon tank

Discussion in 'Journals' started by fablau, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    That was I also thought about, but that's not the case for those stunting plants, PAR is always 50-60 at the substrate, and strangely enough, Miriophillum is growing better despite it is highly shaded, probably under 20-30 PAR at the substrate, or less...
     
  2. burr740

    burr740 ~~ Lover of Micros ~~
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    I think you need to try once a week water changes and see what happens. Not many folks running high techs on two per month. It really seems like you've tried everything else.

    You could be chasing your tail with these ferts for no reason besides that. Water changes arent just to reset nutrients, they do all sorts of wonderful things!
     
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  3. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    Well put Joe. I was going to say the exact same thing earlier today, but never got around to it.

    Might be worth it to take the time to automate the process as much as possible. More work up front but much less every week thereafter.
     
  4. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I hear you guys, and I can tell I have done weekly water changes until 4 months ago. Unfortunately my current life schedule doesn't allow me to have weekly water changes easily... I will do it as soon as I will be able to do it, but I think that it is possible to perform water change every 2 weeks if the right ferts regime is found... Tom also has said that several times, and wrote some dedicated threads on that years ago.

    In any case, in my specific current case, I don't think getting back to changing water once a week would change the results much, plants weren't doing better 4 months ago, actually the situation got better overall. Also, in my smaller 20 gl tank things are growing great and there also I perform WC every two weeks... I repeat it, I think it is possible to maintain such a schedule. Of course once a week WC could make trouble shooting less difficult, and would standardize the metrics of discussions... and on that I agree 100%. But what other magical things could water change help with? Please, let me know what I could miss here. Rest assured, if nothing is going to work even by increasing micros furthermore, I will try to find a way to change water weekly and see if that would make the difference after all. Thanks!
     
  5. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    I get that mate. Was more wondering how much your plants are using vs how much you are adding and showing my thought process to get there. The Graph you've showed doesn't account for nutrient uptake But I get it. It wasn't a critique, just to point out it made me doubt Po4 being the cause even more so, as my trouble is much more severe.
    If it was the cause I am sure 10ppm vs my 2ppm would show drastic differences. But seeing as you have so much wiggle room there it wouldn't hurt to lower it and see if you haven't tried already.

    So that leaves only Co2 as I had thought our trace levels were similar but they are way different. Perhaps something in there though. If those numbers you last posted are right for trace, ( I understand you have been changing these ) my zinc for example is 0.30 ppm vs your 2.25ppm per week. Again , not saying that's the cause just a drastic difference that could account for it and worth mentioning. The only similarity we had was boron you were adding last mix.
    And my Molybdenum and copper are much higher.
    I like stats if you hadn't guessed :D

    I've heard Tom endlessly trying to communicate about co2 being missed so often so I am trying to understand that as best I can and seem to be slowly getting it.
    But once that's consistent and if there are no changes I am keen to try something. But if it's trace for example we would need some sort of baseline to start from.

    Sorry I can't be more helpful.
     
  6. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks @Bishop, I appreciate your help! Well, I am still experimenting here. I doubled PO4 for the past 3 weeks, I dosed half before... just trying and see how it goes. As for Zn, are you also dosing unchelated one?
     
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  7. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    Ok that explains a bit about the Po4, was there any visual difference you found?

    My trace is a mix a hydroponic farmer made me to try, he is willing to make more for me to my own recipe which is cool but at this stage I don't have a preferred mix. I know the iron is 11%DTPA but other than that i'm unsure about chelation.

    I dose daily and this is my week total if it helps. Mn and Cu seem higher by comparison to the other from what I have seen from other people or products, Mn was double and copper was way higher. Before I read your thread I was thinking of switching to a product like Seachem for trace to at least get a guaranteed analysis. But it was happening almost from day one in my tank and I wasn't always using this product. To be fair I have been pretty cheap when it comes to trace. :D

    B Boron
    0.0950
    Mn Manganese
    0.4000
    Mo Molybdenum
    0.0200
    Zn Zinc
    0.0300
    Cu Copper
    0.0300
    Fe Iron
    1.050
     
  8. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I increased all macros a few weeks back, not only PO4, and the results were positive. Now I am trying higher traces to see if that’s going to fix the few remaining issues I have right now.

    About your traces mix, it is important to know if they are chelates or not. Non-chelates elements last much less in water and you may need more and more often. Are the ppms above “per dose”? They look pretty high!
     
  9. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    Cool, good to know. I will try the same and see what results I get.

    Have sent off an email trying to find out if they are chelated.
    That's total dose for the week.
     
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  10. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    So sorry guys for my long absence here, I have be swamped with my job for the past month or so... but plants are doing better after have increased micros of about 30% for the past 2-3 weeks! I won't have time to post pictures this weekend, but hopefully the next one I'll give you a full report.

    Just to give you some hints: Cabomba Furcata got better with increased dosing, so as Ludwigia Mini Red... Ambulia is still a little stunted, but looks it is getting better...

    We'll be in touch with more details soon!
     
    Mike k, burr740, rajkm and 3 others like this.
  11. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    UPDATE

    So sorry guys for my long silence, I got two terrible past months job side, so I couldn't find the time to report my tank's status. Today I could find some time to post an update with some pictures I took right before the last water change, last Saturday, so here I am.

    I must say, the situation hasn't changed much after all, despite I have tried to give everything any plant may need.

    First of all, I reverted back to one water change a week (50-60%) for the past 6 weeks, just to overrule that possible issue.

    Then, here is what the dosing regime as been for the past 4 weeks:

    MICROS: I have matched my micro dosing with Burr's daily dosing, as follows for the past 4 weeks:

    Fe DTPA 10% 0.15 ppm
    Mn 0.075 ppm
    B 0.025 ppm
    Zn 0.06 ppm
    Mo 0.0015 ppm
    Cu 0.001 ppm
    Ni 0.0005 ppm

    I wanted to see how plants would respond with everything inside (Boron included), given daily.

    MACROS: At the same time, for the past 4 weeks, I have increased macros to avoid any possible deficiency, and I have applied the suggested "double dosing on WC day" (aka "front-dosing") to keep macros as high and as constant as possible.

    Here is how my macro dosing has been for the past 4 weeks:

    NO3: 18.36 ppm on WC day, then 7.34 ppm for the remaining days of the week (2x)
    K: 24 ppm on WC day, then 6 ppm for the remaining days of the week (2x)
    P: 1.39 ppm on WC day, then 0.7 ppm for the remaining days of the week (2x)


    With the above regime, I have seen some plants improving a little bit (mostly fast-easy plants like Hygros), but in the overall the situation hasn't changed, and has deteriorated a little for those plants that had problems already. Plants that were already stuck before, got even more stuck such as Cabomba Furcata or Ambulia, or even Stargrass (they are all supposed to be easy plants, right??). AR didn't change much (still sucks).

    All plants that were thriving well before, instead, are still thriving and din't change at all (Lobelia, Ludwigia Repens, Limno, Stauro, Montecarlo, Mirio, Anubias, and more, are still thriving).

    Here are is a group-picture of the good plants:

    [​IMG]


    And here are some pictures of the bad ones:

    AR didn't change much, still pretty pathetic:
    [​IMG]


    Ambulia it still super slow in growth and has stunted tips. It keeps sprouting new side shots that die after a few days, like a vicious cycle that never stops:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    I have tried everything with this plant: root tabs, rich soil, potting them, etc... I've come to the conclusion something is too much in the water column (more thoughts on this below...)


    Cabomba Furcata seemed to do better 2-3 weeks ago with the increase of macros, but it got stuck again when I increased micros to match Burr's latest mix. Stunted tips and dying side shots, similarly to the Ambulia:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Rotala Rotundifolia keeps giving me mixed results: some stems grow OK (not great), and others just start and then stunt. Have a look at the pic below, and you'll see what I am talking about:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Stargrass shows similar symptoms to Ambulia and Cabomba: New shots get stunt quickly, they just stop growing after a few days, and then new side shots are sprout all the time, so that the plant instead than growing up, grows kinda "flat":

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    I have the feeling that the micro mix has something that it is too much for my tank, and it's blocking the assumption of something else... some kind of "negative" interaction is going on. Those symptoms got worse when I increased micros. The smoking gun(s)? Boron and Molybdenum. Most of you guys know my tap has plenty of both, and my guess is that I should just try to avoid dosing those elements once for all. Or, at least, try to avoid them for 2-4 weeks and see what happens. Cu also, I don't think it is needed to be dosed for me. I always measure high concentrations of it with a Hanna colorimeter.

    So, here is the plan: Keep the same dosing, with the exception of B, Mo and Cu that won't be dosed for the upcoming weeks. Hopefully that'll make a (positive) difference.

    Your thoughts on all this?
     
  12. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    I feel for ya man. I've not seen much difference in mine either and tried various fixes also.
    My best result was trying to get co2 distribution much lower in the tank but seeing as you have a carpet ( HC ? ) I doubt that's your problem.
    For what its worth i'd kill for my Reinekii to look like yours :D

    I ruled out substrate problems by growing some in a little planter cup and same issues.
    Keep at it. Looking good considering your troubles.
     
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  13. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Bishop. yes, I don't think to have Co2 issues. The carpet plant I have is Montecarlo, probably easier than HC, but still... it grows like a weed. I used to grow perfect AR with almost no fertilization in the past, in the same tank... I think my tap water plays a big role here.

    We'll find out, it is just a matter of time :)
     
  14. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    Fablau have you ever thought about trying more PAR??

    When I first got started, I had about 50 PAR at the substrate. Had some similar symptoms to yours with "easy" plants.

    Then I reworked my lights, and increased my par significantly. That led to more success with just about everything.

    I noticed your L. Rubin is only red near the top. Mine are 2+ tall and red all the way to the bottom.

    And I'm really surprised to see a problem with Ambulia. It should be a weed, and in general is not very sensitive to dosing levels, unlike some other drama queens.

    The other thought is that Burr (and myself) are dosing those high levels of micros into tanks that are being driven pretty hard, which could be creating more demand. At your lighting level, you might need much less.

    Anyway, just some thoughts. I scratch my head a lot reading your posts as I just can't figure some of these things out.

    But as always, still looks like the good is outweighing the bad.
     
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  15. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Greg. I have thought about light a lot. My current PAR level at the substrate is around 60-70, and I'd say almost 80 where the Ambulia is right now (in the center of the tank). I don't think light is the issue for that plant in particular, since I used to grow it like a weed with half PAR a few years back (with much less ferts!). Of course, L. Red mini would be happier with more light, and so other plants I have (AR probably, as well). Actually, if all this ferts testing is not going to work either, increasing light will be next. But yet, Ambulia is the one that puzzles me the most. As you said, it is supposed to be an easy plant... And I know that, damn it! I remember vividly, it began having issues when I increased Zn a big deal compared to previous low levels... maybe not directly related to that, but I have the feeling something is too much. I will find out, just a matter of time!
     
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  16. nicpapa

    nicpapa Guru Class Expert

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    Here is Rotala Rotundifolia, in a non co2 , 24gh and 22kh tank
    I add when i do water changes some traces, and litle no3( dont ask me how much, i dont know) , thats all, light is 39 watt per 100 lt tank.
    Photos is from mobile not very good.

    IMG_20180418_221034.jpg

    IMG_20180418_221048.jpg

    IMG_20180418_221120.jpg
     
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  17. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Wow Nic, that's impressive! Who said Rotalas want soft water?!

    What strikes me is the red color... Possibly nitrogen deficiency?
     
  18. nicpapa

    nicpapa Guru Class Expert

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    I dont think , tank is overstock with ancistrus, lot babies...
    The substrate in this tank , is gravel , but i never cleaned for 5 or more years...
     
  19. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    Fablau - have you tried putting some, say, ambulia in the "good" location in the tank to see if there is any improvement? You may have mentioned this already (I don have time to read much now).
     
  20. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Well, that’s impressive, I have never seen Rotundifolia pink like that. Fantastic!
     
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