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Fablau 75 gallon tank

Discussion in 'Journals' started by fablau, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Yeah, I know, it's insane. I also thought by dosing adeguate KNO3 I should get proportionally enough K... but I am going to increase K by dosing extra K2SO4, just in case...

    A question for everyone: how do you interpret this section of my water report (page 6) about Cu and Pb:

    CuWR.jpg

    Do you see a way to understand the quantity of Cu and Pb in ppm or ppb?
     
  2. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    The Action Level is the threshold for technical measures, more like this level should not be exceeded.
    The Public Health Goal is what the current political/scientific concentration says is healthy for the majority of the population. This is the level they want to get in an ideal world.

    The 90th percentile value says that 90% of the measurements have a concentration below the one given. The 50th percentile is the median.

    So most of the tests have a value below 0.2ppm Cu. However we do not really know how high or low the values get. The values of Cu are mostly influenced by the piping near the point of use, more so in warmer water.
     
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  3. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    Not trying to hi-jack here but?
    Shading is a huge enemy in my tank, if not in everyone's tank to some degree.
    Making me really think about slower growing, shorter plants, more space between.
    I know the plants would turn into much better specimens!

    I'm still trying wrap my head around 3-4 species per foot. Not square foot!:D

    I have made a decision to sell off several species "remove them from inventory" shall we say.
     
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  4. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks very much, that's exactly what I thought, but I wanted to know your opinion as well. In other words: I know nothing about Cu levels except it is for sure lower than 0.2 ppm. But I can say that I have measured Cu levels in my tap several times with a Hanna colorimeter, and the levels are always 0 So... it is possible that my Cu levels are less than 1 ppb from my tap. Therefore, I could dose it without issues, but better dosing less of what I have been doing for the past 10 days. I'll dose less though from now on.

    @burr740 What's your tap Cu level? Just to have any idea... thanks.
     
  5. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Dont know for sure, all that I know is that apparently there is some based on the last time I had it tested. (guy on tpt with the hanna)

    Back when I had the 75, Id been dosing about 6 ppb from csmb per week. That's a possible maximum of 12 ppb from dosing when you account for accumulation along with 50% weekly water changes.

    End of the week tank water test showed 17. So I have deduced that there must me at least some in the tap.
     
  6. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Makes sense... I'll see how much Cu to add to my next mix (I gonna mix it right now), possibly the bare minimum necessary to avoid a deficiency. In case, I'll measure and add more if needed ;)
     
  7. zervan

    zervan Junior Poster

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    Hello Fablau, no word for 2 weeks... Did you try to exclude Cu and B? How are plants doing?
     
  8. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Well, I am still testing higher macros and seems to work pretty well. Most plants got better, not perfect yea though. I haven't stopped Cu and B, just kept them at minimum. I will give a detailed update this coming weekend. Sorry for the long silence, swamped in work this past few weeks...thanks for checking!
     
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  9. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    Just read all 26 pages of this. :D
    Wish I had read it earlier as we seem to have similar issues.
    Going to have a look though this again and compare our data and see if I can find something.

    Great thread and tank too.
     
  10. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Bishop, appreciated! I will give an update as soon as I can find some spare time, crazy days at work... Please, bear with me!
     
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  11. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    UPDATE

    Oh well, finally I could find some spare time to update this journal, I am sorry guys, but the past 3 weeks have been crazy!

    Ok, here is the deal: The past Saturday (February 3rd) I got my trimming and water change (as you may recall, I change 60-70% water once every 2 weeks), and so I assessed my tank situation.

    Until the past Saturday for the previous 2 weeks, I have been dosing this for macros (I increased them, almost doubled them):

    3x a week (6x before WC):

    No3: 9.18 ppm
    K: 7.37 ppm
    PO4: 0.87 ppm


    And for micros, the following based on latest Burr's recipe, a little bit modified for B and Cu (almost daily, 6x a week, 12x before WC):

    Fe DTPA 10%: 0.2 ppm
    Mn: 0.09 ppm
    Zn: 0.75 ppm
    Mo: 0.0013 ppm
    Cu: 0.00165 ppm
    Ni: 0.0005 ppm
    B: 0.25 ppm

    NOTE: The above ppms are based on a 60gl tank, despite this tank is 75gl with a big, oversized wet/dry, cerges, 2 reactors, tubings, etc... as water capacity I'd have around 85-90gl in total, but if you leave out all the hardscape (substrate, wood, rocks, filter media, etc), I guess the water column should be around 60-70? Not sure though! That's another doubt I have, maybe I should dose more? Calculating for a 75gl tank? I am eager to know your thoughts on this, more later below...


    Anyway, after 2 weeks of the above dosing regime, the results have been mixed... I mean, overall plants got better (I could clearly see higher macros helped), but the ones with problems before didn't improve that much.

    Here is an overall picture of the tank before I performed trimming and WC:

    full.jpg


    Some plants got just perfect like Lobelia Cardinalis:

    lobelia.jpg


    Or Limno Aromantica (much more dense), Ludwigia Repens got gigantic, and Rotala Rotundifolia also put out nice sprouts:

    Limno-Repens-Rotala.jpg


    Mirio also got better, despite it is in a pretty shaded area of the tank:

    mirio.jpg


    Cabomba Furcata finally put out 1-2 good stems, despite the rest were still stunted, but Ambulia didn't improve that much (damn plant, that's supposed to be easy! What's worng with it??!):

    cabomba-ambulia.jpg

    Here are some more closeup pics of the stunted Ambulia I took the past week before WC:

    amb1.jpg

    amb2.jpg

    amb3.jpg

    What the heck's wrong with that plant, I really don't know.

    AR also was still in pretty bad shape:

    AR.jpg


    So... you see how was my situation, the same plants still had the same issues, only Cabomba Furcata got a little bit better... not enough though.

    So, for the past week, I decided to cut on micros and see what was going to happen. I have been dosing this for the past 5 days, daily for micros (macros didn't change):

    Fe DTPA 10%: 0.15 ppm
    Mn: 0.06 ppm
    Zn: 0.25 ppm
    Mo: 0.0008 ppm
    Cu: 0.00110 ppm
    Ni: 0.0003 ppm
    B: NONE

    Yes, I decided to skip Boron completely since my tap should have around 0.11 ppm of it (super crazy high). Also, cut more on Zn because I noticed Ambulia got stuck several months ago when I increased Zn (maybe not a direct effect, but an indirect one?)... anyway, I wanted to try to reduce it.

    Well, the results of this new regime has been worse for the past week.

    Rotala Rotundifolia appears to have stunted tips so far:

    RotalaStunt1.jpg

    RotalaStunt2.jpg


    AR didn't improve, and instead showed clear stunted tips for some stems:

    ARstunt.jpg


    Cabomba Furcata didn't change at all, the only good stem is still there, but the other ones are still stunted, look at the closeup of this stem tip below:

    cabstunt.jpg


    Ambulia is still stunted, no difference at all, here are two closeups of a couple of stems:

    ambstunt.jpg

    ambstunt2.jpg


    So.. I am still lost here. I think I'll revert back to the previous micros regime, leaving still out Boron. Also, I could try to increase K a little bit (maybe 1 ppm more) and I also though to add some Ca and Mg more. I mix some RO with tap (something like 15% TO and 85% tap) and my GH is around 180 ppm, so I should have plenty, but I don't think adding some more would hurt, and could also help with excess Boron? Happi on the plantedtank.net wrote about that... I don't know what else to try with that damn Ambulia. As we know, Ambulia should't be sensitive to micros, and should be a very easy plant to grow (I used to trash away pounds of it without even dosing 10 years ago!)... something else is missing in that plant, and I have no idea what.

    As I mentioned above, I could have more water column in this tank than I think (maybe 70-75 gl? or more?), and I might need to dose more overall... what are your thoughts on all this?

    I am eager to know your thoughts. Please, bring them on!
     
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  12. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    Do you know your water column P and N ppm before water change?
     
  13. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I know I should have enough... I measured just with a reference solutions and I know I have for sure more than 40 ppm of NO3 and more than 5 ppm of PO4. But I haven't measured the exact amount. Any thoughts?
     
  14. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    [QUOTE="fablau, post: 151451, member: 1220" Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
    A few. We have similar issues.
    I've been through so many variables as I'm pretty new to the technical side of all of this. I thought it was Chloride from CaCl . So I dosed more, no change, dosed zero, no change. Dosed more trace, no change. Thought it was co2 and my regulator broke so spent ages freaking out about it, brought a new co2 bottle, regulator and still nothing, thought it was tap water but my low tech 60L grows nearly anything I throw at it the list goes on.
    So what I don't do in my low tech is add co2, add ferts, or water change. Everything else is about the same except for hardware.
    After reading this I realized we might be able to compare data and ignore all the things that we do differently and focus on the things we do that are the same. It's not perfect by any stretch but worth a look.

    Yesterday I read Burrs thread on the his 120G and he mentioned phospahate blocking heavy metals.
    https://barrreport.com/threads/120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-now-with-50-more-dutch.14072/page-38#post-151411
    I had been through all of this with calcium and magnesium etc from reading way to many terrestrial gardeners blogs and websites but stopped short of phosphate. My understanding is we dose way less for blocking to be of any serious issue. Others have very high Po4 with no such effects.
    But...

    You said here you dosed no Z and got worse, you dose more and it didn't get better .You dosed more trace and it got better for a day or two?. My understanding of this blocking suggests that if Z for example is blocked, adding more Z wont help at all as it's being blocked so can only uptake a small amount.
    Sadly we don't have too many similar plants apart from Reinekii and Rotundfolia so my focus is on them for now.

    My total P04 for the week is much higher than yours at 5.3ppm But interesting you think your water column is that high as mine is only around 2ppm.
    I am not sure this is the cause but worth looking into to rule it out.? At this point I am keen to sabotage every other plant I have just to save this Reinekii. I have kept it for years and never come across this.

    So from a brief look the few things we do the same or similar..
    Co2
    Po4
    No3
    Trace ( maybe )

    And just about everything else is different.
    My GH is 5, Kh is 1.5, K is way higher for example. I don't add water conditioner but chlorine and chloramine scare me :D

    Hopefully today if I get time I will compare the two routines side by side and we might have a narrower window of things to look at. That water column Po4 test would be helpful if you find the time. I may have some questions if thast ok but no rush.

    One thing I am doing that you might like to try is add a stem or two of say rotundfolia or anything that's stunting and put it in a small separate pot with an inert substrate like sand see how it grows. This will help you rule out any substrate issues. But plant it close to where the established bunch is so it has same light and flow.
     
  15. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    Excessive space between nodes on Ambulia is typically shading or low light.
    I have never had this plant stunt unless it becomes shaded, even in lower PAR tanks.
    In 30-40 PAR in can grow well but must have a clear path to the light.
     
  16. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I thought about that, but PAR in that area is 50-60 at the substrate... of course, I could try to increase light, I thought about that... but I am not sure that'd fix the problem, I could grow this plant like a weed in this very same tank with 30 PAR and much less ferts. I know, scratching my head as well...
     
  17. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing... I measured today with reference solution and my Po4 is around 7 ppm... so I guess it'll be much higher before WC in 7 days! Keep in mind I perform WC every 2 weeks, so ferts do accumulate more. Also, what kind of substrate do you have? Inert?
     
  18. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    Shading??? Possibly?
     
  19. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    Ok 7 is high that's good to know just need to figure out if it matters. Its way higher than mine and My stunting is much much worse than yours, If you are keen raise it for two weeks and I will lower mine or vice versa. I don't think this will solve it but I am at a loss to find any significant theory other than lets try stuff. It would cover both ends of the spectrum doing the opposites.

    You add 2.6ppm Po4 per week if I understand correctly. If you double that amount for your two week total its only 5.2ppm. So your current water column po4 ppm is triple what you add. Something doesn't quite add up there. Effectively your tank is producing over 1.8 ppm po4 and if you account for plant uptake even more than that. If it's the cause and you raise it to say 9ppm in the water column it should induce other plants to do the same and make the current ones worse. ( not accounting for accumulation )

    My substrate is a pond soil that's a sandy loamy clay and that's all that's know about it. We don't have many products here. Underneath is a few bags of scoria and topped with sand. I have had mixed results using it and just want to remove it as a potential culprit as I feel everything else is in adequate order.
     
  20. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I am actually dosing 1.08 per dose, so that's over 3 ppm per week, or 6 ppm every 2 weeks. That's going to accumulate fast, look at the graph below, my peak could reach 10 ppm or more:

    82bae2157e26d58c992f1728785257d9.jpg


    As for your situation, if you have that kind of substrate, it is going to suck nutrients, similarly to ADA Aquasoil or other high CEC substrates, that would explain lower detected levels of everything (in my experience, high CEC substrates sucks micros and macros a big deal)... In other words, you need to dose more than me :)
     
    #520 fablau, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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