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Fablau 75 gallon tank

Discussion in 'Journals' started by fablau, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. nicpapa

    nicpapa Guru Class Expert

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  2. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Hi Nic. Interesting about the first discussion, I didn't read that one. They stated this:

    Note that it does not remove metals from the water (it just detoxifies them)

    What does that mean? That metals are still there ready to be used by plants? Or what??!! How would you interpret that?

    In any case, as I wrote earlier, I made a test with Cu and my small Hanna checker: Without prime, I get something like 10 ppb from my tap (which corresponds roughly to what my old water test found, 0.018 ppm Cu, see below). If I add Prime at its regular dosing, the level drops down to 0. So... it really looks like Prime is lowering down metals that are no longer detectable under a certain threshold, which, I guess, means that are less available to plant as well.

    In your case, It is possible that your tap water doesn't have much heavy metals already, which is great! I don't know how much I have from my tap source, but I do know what I get after my whole home filter because I tested that water several times, I have the following values:

    Mn: less than 0.004 ppm
    Zn: 0.011 ppm
    Cu: 0.018 ppm
    B: 0.11 ppm
    Fe: less than 0.01 ppm

    So... my biggest concern is Boron which is NOT neutralized by Prime at all. But can 0.11 ppm coming from tap water after each water change detrimental? I don't know... by reading around, it looks like plants could be affected by levels over 0.5 ppm, so I'd be under that anyway... but what about the most sensitive plants? Who knows...

    All other elements instead (Zn, Cu, Fe), should be pretty much zeroed by Prime according to what Seachem's folks stated on the forums above.

    I haven't tried pure reconstituted RO water, and I'd like to avoid that because would be too much time consuming for me. I am trying to find a low-maintenance routine, and maybe reducing water changes as Tom has suggested several times could work better for me.

    For the past week, I have dosed 2/3 of Burr's suggested dose of traces, and I haven't seen much improvement. BBA is still on some Anubia leaves, a little, but there. For this upcoming 2 weeks I plan to increase traces dosing to the full suggested Burr's as follows:

    Fe - .075 ppm
    Mn - .03 ppm
    B - .013 ppm
    Zn - .006 ppm
    Mo - .0006 ppm
    Cu - .0008 ppm

    Note that I'll still dose extra Boron. I could avoid that having already 0.11 ppm Boron from my tap, but I don't want to make a new mix without the Boron since I don't think additional 0.039 ppm B per week will make much difference. I'll consider to make a new mix if I won't see any improvements in the next 2 weeks.

    BBA appeared 2 weeks after I began using Prime, and after I used Seachem Comprehensive at recommended dose 3x a week. I think Prime lowered traces too much for Comprehensive to be enough for my plants. Hence some stunted tips and BBA appearance.

    I want to see if increasing traces fixes my issues. At least, all this would make sense, wouldn't it?
     
    #362 fablau, Oct 7, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Detoxify: it likely chelates them, this makes them less toxic.
    Tannins do this also.

    Note, Copper is more selective towards algae than plants, about 2-3 x moire so.
    But this is for the true common aquatic submersed weeds.

    I think with your tap, simply reducing the % and/frequency of tap water changes...............is a simpler and wiser key to this given your end goal.
    The other factor is that these ppm and ppb's are pretty low, plants should easily remove it after a 1-2 weeks generally.
    ADA AS, clay soils, potting soil with clays etc, these will also detoxify and bind metals, as well an ample amount of driftwood and the tannins.

    It seems unlikely that plants would stunt etc, if you can keep and BREED shrimps if it's high trace metals.
    Shrimp are much more touchy than plants.
     
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  4. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thank you Tom for supporting what I was thinking. I have a lot of driftwood in my tank, so, that also should help to detoxifies metals. And good point about shrimp: I do have a lot of shrimp in my tank and they breed all the time, so... that should be a good sign ;)

    And yes, my goals is to reduce WC to just twice a month. I used to do that in the past, and it was perfect for me. I'll slowly get there... thanks again.
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I have to wonder what polyphosphates may affect on traces. They are used in water treatment to help with metal pipe corrosion.
    They sort of act like chelators also.

    Not certain their affects however, but you can speculate.
    They are commonly used in tap water suppliers.

    You might do say 10-20% max WC once a week to start. See.
    They see if you can go longer from there.
    Careful to note effects post WC on plants.

    This does NOT work on my 120, but does out in the garage. WTF?
    Works fine on my 70 Buce tank, but it likes water changes also.
    Trying to reconcile this paradox still.

    Light is one factor. CO2 is another. Flow is a 3rd. Filtration is 4th. WC is the main parameter of interest.
    I think I could do it if I really wanted.

    Shrimp breed like mad in both tanks though. So as far toxicity of metals, I'm very suspicious despite my Evil bad guy Microtox meme. haha
    Maybe peat filtered water might help some after water changes or used for the water changes.
    Maybe Activated carbon to remove organics, chelators and poly's?
    Not a hard thing to do there.
     
  6. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Good points Tom. I was thinking to actually perform a 50% WC every 2 weeks, and slash dosing in half. Would that work? Got to try...

    The idea to use carbon in the filter is a great one, to reduce organics and the rest... Purigen also could help, right? I will do that as soon as I am ready to start this new schedule.

    Paradoxes is part of our hobby, that's why it is so damn hard!
     
  7. Kyalgae

    Kyalgae Lifetime Members
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    Would you run the carbon all the time, like in the main filter? What if you had a separate loop packed with carbon and purigen that only operated periodically to scrub your tank? Instead of changing water you just run the scrubber loop.
     
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  8. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    That'd be a great solution Kyalgae, but unfortunately I don't have enough room in the cabinet under my tank to add an extra pack like you are suggesting... if I had enough space, I'd put the carbon and purigen inside a small cerges driven by a small pump to be run just once a week or similar...

    Instead, I think I could consider to either keep carbon and Purigen always in the filter (I have a big sump), or put them there just for the second week only before water change... but since I am trying to reduce work load, the idea to have that always there appeals me more...
     
  9. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I was reading about the properties of peat in removing metals and minerals from water, and I am now wondering if that could actually be used to remove excessive components like Chloride, Sodium and Sulfates as well.... your thoughts on that guys?
     
  10. Christophe

    Christophe Subscriber
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    Probably happens via cation exchange capacity of the peat. Might act some on sodium, but not on chloride or sulfate, both anions.
     
  11. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Fantastic explanation, thank you Christophe for clarifying.
     
  12. nicpapa

    nicpapa Guru Class Expert

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    try as alternative to Prime , salty shrimp easy filter,its natural.
    I use this only in expensive shrimps.
    Its the same with easy life filter medium.
    I dont know if u see documentarys, its the same thing with one that parrots eats after it poison fruits.

    http://www.saltyshrimp.de/english/easy_filter_powder.html
     
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  13. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

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    It's the other way. Prime reduces metals by precipitating them out of solution. Nearly all metals with the exception iron have lower solubility in lower oxidation state.

    All water conditioners will detoxify heavy metals to some extent. Even pure sodium thiosulfite wlll detoxify heavy metals by reduction. API is sodium theosulfite + EDTA which further chelates metals. None remove metals, only bind metals temporarily by precipitation or chelating, and will release back to solution if the condition is met. Carbon filter or ion exchange resin will truly remove metals when you remove and replace the media.

    In an established tank, sodium thiosulfate is all that is needed to split chloramine and neutralize the more toxic chlorine, leaving the plants or nitrifying bacteria to consume the free ammonia.
     
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  14. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks Nic for the tip, I'll keep that in mind!
     
  15. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks for making the point Tiger15. I am wondering then what happens to the sodium thiosulfate? Or to orthophosphate Prime uses? Could that accumulate?
     
  16. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

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    I am not a biochemist, and here is my understanding of the chemistry.

    When metals precipitate out of solution, they will deposit on the substrate or captured by the filter media and will accumulate until human vacuum the substrate or clean the filter media. In the precipitation form, metals are not bio available and therefore non-toxic. But plant roots and substrate micros are able to induce local REDOX changes that release a little back to the water column or absorbed by plant roots. If there is a drastic change in REDOX, like stirring up the substrate or power outage disruption, there is a chance of sudden spiking of soluble metals at toxic levels.

    Chelating has the opposite effect of preventing metals from precipitation and holding them in solution by complexing with organic molecules. But the bond is not strong allowing slow breakdown and release of metals back to the water column which subsequently precipitate or absorbed by plant leaves. Chelating detoxifies not by permanently binding metals, but by sequestering their effective bio availability concentrations to non-toxic level.

    I am not 100% sure of the secret ingredients of Prime. Your tests show elevated orthophosphate but no increase in sulfur or sulfate. Prime MSDS says it contains complexed hydrosulfite salts with no mention of phosphate. Does Prime smell sulfur to you?

    I am not sure of your tap water testing objectives. Are you concerned of accumulating too much or not getting enough metals for your plants. Is there a way you can loop your WC water before the whole house filter so you can benefit from the richer metals content.
     
  17. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks for your reply, all what you wrote makes sense and corresponds to what I know. A real chemist could help to clarify this even further.

    And yes, when I smell Prime, I smell "rotten eggs" which tells me, sulfates are inside...

    My goal is to "reset" metals, or in other words, reduce them as much as I can. In a ideal world, I'd like to have RO coming out of my tap, so I can create my own water. As I said earlier, I could go that route, but I am trying to reduce my work load not increase it. So, I think the use of Prime in "resetting" metals to an acceptable level is what I need in order to dose my own traces with confidence and without the fear to overdose a single element of it just because was already in the tap. That's simply it.
     
  18. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    UPDATE

    Sorry guys for my late update, situation has been kinda crazy here and I couldn't find a minute to take some pictures and post an update about my tank.

    I put aside the idea to analyze single traces for now, I have decided to assume that by using Prime at their recommended dosage inside the tank after each water change, is going to "reset" most of the traces content down to very low levels. At least, I am sure they won't accumulate (with the only possible exception of Boron which is already pretty high from my tap)

    So... what happened in the past few weeks? I have just dosed the following as traces, as Burr suggested a while ago:

    Fe - .075 ppm
    Mn - .03 ppm
    B - .013 ppm
    Zn - .006 ppm
    Mo - .0006 ppm
    Cu - .0008 ppm

    And I can say the situation is improved a lot, even though other plants got worse a little bit (guess which one mostly...)

    Also, BBA is almost disappeared again from Anubias (yes!) confirming one more time that a lack or excess of traces can be cause of it (observed several times in my tank)... maybe it is a wrong statement, but in any case if plants are suffering for something BBA can take over. Forget about the fact that Anubias can get BBA because of too high light, my Anubias are under over 120 PAR of light and they thrive well, with no BBA when they have nutrients well balanced and available:

    AnubiasBBA.jpg


    Ambulia got much better and sprout new stems, Cabomba also has been growing great in the past few weeks:

    ambulias-cabombas.jpg


    Lobelia Cardinalis is doing great, beautiful intense green (it looks like DTPA is working great for this plant!)

    lobelia.jpg


    And Stauro also got his nice green back:

    stauro.jpg


    Stargrass got a big cut because was taking over, here is a pic of it right after the cut:

    stargrass.jpg

    That plant takes off if you give it good Co2 and good traces. Either lack of those, and you start getting dark leaves and stunting.

    Java moss is thriving well, which tells me I shouldn't be in any "toxic" realm (as you recall, Java Moss didn't grow at all when I used to dose CSM at super-crazy levels):

    moss.jpg


    This other plant (I can't recall its name, forgot!) got growth back again, it looks like it got stuck because of too low traces during the time I tried to dose just Comprehensive 3x a week at its recommended dose. Now it is back again into growth:

    other1.jpg


    Ludigia Red Mini is growing, but slowly and with small leaves... actually the tips got a little bit twisted, please, have a look at this picture and let me know if you see it right, I am afraid this plant is maybe not getting enough light (around 50-60 PAR where it stands now):

    ludwigia.jpg

    All other plants (Rotala Rotundifolia, Vallisneria, Montecarlo, etc) are thriving as you can see from this full-tank shot:

    full.jpg


    And now the ones that got stuck... gues which ones? Well, AR of course. I guess something else must be wrong with this plant, either the position (too low light where they are) or what's left of my AR plants in this tank is too damaged to recover. Have a look at the picture below, and let me know your thoughts about it. It is currently getting around 40-50 PAR, maybe too low? Or is it still a "traces" problem?

    AR1.jpg

    Nesaea Pedicellata also got stuck and twisted in the past 10 days, in the midst of the Burr's dosing regime, it was growing well before with lower traces:

    nausea1.jpg

    nausea2.jpg

    Look at it compared to the Cabomba, and you see how twisted it is:

    nauseacabomba.jpg


    I have 3 possible ideas about those few stuck plants:

    1. Traces are now too high for them.
    2. Most plants are now thriving and growing more than before, therefore less resources are available to those few, most delicate plants.
    3. Something else must play in hurting those few plants... maybe light?

    What are your thoughts on that? I am eager to know what you think, even because I don't know what to do next... either try to increase traces even further (I just saw how Burr successfully improved his plants by increasing traces even more, dosing double than me) or try to reduce them a little, maybe of 1/3.... what's your advice/suggestion/ideas on that?

    In the meantime, I'll try to increase a little bit the light in the front of the tank, right over the Ludwigia Red Mini and the stuck AR to see if that's going to make any difference. PAR in the front is going to increase from 40-50 to 50-60 at the substrate, not much, but maybe enough to make a difference...
     
    #378 fablau, Oct 21, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
    Jason King, rzn7z7, Phishless and 2 others like this.
  19. vinzphua

    vinzphua Subscriber

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    What's your dosing schedule for this? Alternate days? Or daily?

    Sent from my XT1572 using Tapatalk
     
  20. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Alternate days with macros, 3x a week:

    1 - Macros (on WC day)
    2 - Traces
    3 - Macros
    4 - Traces
    5 - Macros
    6 - Traces
    7 - rest...
     
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