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Experimenting with high flow (over 30x turnover)

Discussion in 'Non-CO2 Methods' started by pusdesris, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    I started filling it almost a week ago now, I am waiting for my bulkhead plugs to come in the mail before I can finish filling.

    I am using fish that I read are adapted for high flow (white clouds and otos). Does anyone know of more besides hillstream loaches(not appealing to me)? I might try corys and shrimp at some point, not sure how they will like it though. I got one of almost every plant that my lfs stocks to see what will thrive in my water. I also got a small sample of river water and rocks from a stream near my house to help get the microfauna started.

    [video=youtube;_N70CJysJoI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N70CJysJoI[/video]
     
  2. Yo-han

    Yo-han Guru Class Expert

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    I've a 20X turnover tank and IMO that would be the absolute max for plants to stay in the substrate. When only using epiphytes you might do more or use something like sand instead of aqua soil. This would keep the plants in the substrate more firm perhaps.

    Why would you go 30x?
     
  3. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    I am using sand, and I think I might add some heavier rocks or gravel to the mix. I usually see a lot of sand and rocks in streams, rarely any mud or soil.

    Just to try something new. I had all the high flow pumps sitting around from a reef I recently took down.

    I assume there are many fast flowing streams in the world with dense vegetation, and I would like to try to replicate this environment.
     
  4. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    I got my Milwaukee ph meter in yesterday and started taking some measurements. With the water quality values provided by the City of Ann Arbor and this data, I am trying to calculate some meaningful data. My tank is kept around 68 degrees F. There is no heater and the high flow in combination with a cool basement keeps the temp low. There is no CO2 supplementation.

    http://www.a2gov.org/government/publicservices/water_treatment/Documents/CCR_2010_color_web_FINAL_030212.pdf

    According to the city of Ann Arbor, the carbonate hardness is about 140 mg/ml or 7.8 kh. And with a tap ph of 9.3 plus some variance. Out of my exact tap I see a Ph of 8.5. Using the formula CO2 ppm = 3.6*KH*10 ^ (7-pH), It seams the CO2 out of the tap is 0.88 ppm. This makes sense to me as it gets aerated coming out of the tap, this is why I get a lower pH than the city of Ann Arbor.

    The pH measured at 8pm is 7.5, suggesting a CO2 concentration of 8.88ppm.

    The pH measured at 8am is 7.1, suggesting a CO2 concentration of 22.30ppm. While I would expect it to be higher in the morning since it is before the lights go on and before any photosynthesis starts taking place, 22ppm is still higher than what I would expect from a tank with such high flow. I have a lot of surface agitation, does anyone have an explanation?

    I'll also try to get some more measurements at different times.
     
  5. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    The flows do not exceed about 1-2 knots where you find nice aquatic plant beds. The flow is more about low pressure and high flow over a wide cross sectional area, vs high pressure over a small area like is typical for aquariums.
    This is why things like the Vortech powerheads are popular.

    Reef folks have a more troublesome time than ADA, and FW planted aquarist. In otherwords, some of the best looking scapes have low to medium high flow, not torrents.
    I can adjust my tank's flow many different ways and patterns.

    If you are NOT adding CO2, then the CO2 is only ever going to be about 2-3 ppm tops.
    Maybe higher with low flow and soil/organic loading(but you'll also remove O2 to do this process of organic matter).

    So you need to measure the tap AFTER it's degassed a good 48 hours or so for pH/KH.
    If it does not suggest 1-3 ppm, then you have an issue, either the pH is off or the KH is not entirely all 100% carbonate hardness(more like this issue).
     
  7. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    Thanks for all the insights Tom.

    I am using 4 koralia pumps; they are rather low velocity, but high flow. The velocity may still be too high as you suggest, but I will continue the experiment for a few more weeks to see what happens.

    Could the low temperatures account for higher dissolved CO2 than what is common? I know gas solubility goes up with lower temperatures. The pH is bouncing around a lot at the moment, as I started filling the rest of the tank with water and the tank is still cycling, but I have been getting readings around 7.6 in both the dusk and dawn now.

    Besides carbonate what is there in the tap water that can have an affect on pH or kH? I don't think there would be any hydroxide ions.
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    The colder the water, the more dissolve gas it will contain.
    So yes, but not this much.

    Non carbonate alkalinity is sometimes added to some tap water.
    It's not hydroxides, often they use poly phosphates, then Seachem discus "buffer".


    If you want to go with non CO2 methods, then you really should/need to ignore the KH/pH and CO2, that is the point after all:rolleyes:
    It is a waste of your time.
     
  9. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    Point taken. Even so, I have the equipment on hand, so I am curious to how stable it is at different times of day, since stability is expected with a non-co2 system. It seems to have recently stabilized to around 7.8 at all times of day. Around 4ppm, which is much closer to the range you suggested. Perhaps my meter was giving faulty readings or there was something in the water contributing to the fluctuations and has since broken down.

    A few more updates: I finally got the bulkhead caps, they aren't very pretty, but they work and I filled the rest of the tank with water over the course of a few days.

    I also am experiencing a bloom of something causing cloudy water, I am not too worried about it though.

    I wish I could find more plants to start the tank with, but I can't find any floating plants or any plants that aren't melted at the local shops. Oh well, the tank isn't dirted or fertilized so perhaps what I have will be enough to prevent algae. A few of the plants melted, but most of them seem to have new growth.

    I'll take videos when the lights come on.
     
  10. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    The water cleared up and everything seems to be thriving so far. I don't have all the flow turned on all the way until things grow in and establish roots a little more though.

    [video=youtube;0_vLoKL7iWk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_vLoKL7iWk&feature=youtu.be[/video]
     
  11. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    I finally planted the jungle val after letting it float for a few weeks to grow roots. It seems to be pearling or something.

    [video=youtube;YtUtUibVsCk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtUtUibVsCk[/video]
     
  12. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    Something seems to be growing on my driftwood.
    [attachment=1550:name]
    Not sure where this seed came from, but it is sprouting.
    [attachment=1551:name]

    IMG_1437.JPG

    IMG_1439.JPG
     
  13. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    Everything seems to be doing quite well, from what I can tell. I have never had a planted tank before as reference but everything seems to be growing and no fish have died or anything.

    I finally got the pumps in such an orientation that they don't dig holes int he sand or anything. I pulled out a few of the stem plants because I just didn't like them and couldn't find a way to work them into the aquascape.
    [attachment=1558:name]

    IMG_1464.JPG
     
  14. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    More interesting things are showing up.

    A worm showed up in my filter.
    [attachment=1562:name]

    I am not sure what is growing on my driftwood, but I kind of like it. It appears to be bright green and dark red tufts of some type of algae.
    [attachment=1563:name]

    Seems I have a few patches of cyano too, which aren't so nice...
    [attachment=1561:name]

    All my plants are growing leaves pretty quick, even the anubias! 2 leaves in about 2 weeks.
    [attachment=1564:name]

    WP_000620.jpg

    WP_000608.jpg

    WP_000610.jpg

    WP_000615.jpg
     
  15. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    Can someone please ID the stuff in the 2nd picture on the previous post?
     
  16. ZeroFish

    ZeroFish Member

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    The red one is BBA, not sure about the green one.
     
  17. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    Interesting, I didn't know bba came in a red variety. It only seems to be growing on the driftwood directly in front of the pumps. If it spreads to plant leaves I will try peroxide treating it, but I kind of like how it looks on the driftwood. The thank is still quite young so I suspect a lot of these things will come and go, at least that is how it was in saltwater.
     
  18. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    Here are some clearer pictures.
    [attachment=1565:name]
    [attachment=1566:name]
    [attachment=1567:name]

    IMG_1471.JPG

    IMG_1474.JPG

    IMG_1477.JPG
     
  19. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Red alga is BBA, the green is Pithophora, a nice green species that loves high current and high O2 levels.
    It is one of the nicer species of algae, if you place the stones or wood near the surface, blast the water over that, this alga will grow nicely.
    I learned how to grow this species 30 years ago.
     
  20. pusdesris

    pusdesris Prolific Poster

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    Thanks Tom! Why did the BBA turn red? From googling, the only time I can see other people's bba turn read is when they treat it with peroxide.
     
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