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EI dosing using this "local" trace mix/chelated iron

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by jarthel, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. jarthel

    jarthel Junior Poster

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    This is the analysis data of the trace mix (as written in the box) in %W/W
    -----------
    sulphur as sulphates: 6.29
    calcium as carbonate: 10.00
    magnesium as sulphate: 3.62
    manganese as sulphate: 2.88
    iron as chelate: 2.73
    copper as sulphate: 1.25
    zinc as sulphate: 1.00
    boron as borate: 0.09
    molybdenum as molybdate: 0.0038
    ---------
    I am assuming the chelator for the trace mix is EDTA because the box and origin is very similar to chelated iron below.

    The chelated iron is listed as Iron as complex of EDTA: 13 %W/W.

    I want to dose using dry salts if possible :)

    Thank you very much for the help :)
     
  2. Darkblade48

    Darkblade48 Guru Class Expert

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    I am not home right now, so I cannot check my own trace mix composition, but from a brief glance, the amount of copper in your trace mix seems quite high.
     
  3. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Mix to Match Local Soil

    Hi,

    This sounds like a local terrestrial mix for the local soil.

    Not only is the copper way high the balance seems off, which makes sense if the soil makes up the rest of the 'mix'. :)

    Biollante
     
  4. jarthel

    jarthel Junior Poster

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    what's the consequence (to plants/fish) of that much copper? thank you
     
  5. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Bad, Very Bad

    :eek: I've dosed 1/4 tsp of a fertilizer that contained 0.05% copper. It went into a 56L WC and killed some algae and one RCS. At 1.25% copper you will kill more then just some algae. IME, dosing copper levels above 0.2ppm starts to get real dicey for critters.
     
    #5 Tug, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2010
  6. jarthel

    jarthel Junior Poster

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    I would/do not have any shrimps in the tank. I suppose that's fine then?
     
  7. Darkblade48

    Darkblade48 Guru Class Expert

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    Heavy metals are toxic to all forms of life, not just shrimp. I recall reading an experiment where someone conducted the effects of increasing concentrations of copper sulfate on a Neon Tetra's health.

    Suffice it to say, results were not pleasant.
     
  8. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Looking a little further into your trace mix (without knowing the size of your water column). I've used a 20 gallon tank as an example. Lets say it's got a water column of 56L. Dosing levels depend a lot on what's already in your tap water, but 1/16 of a teaspoon of that stuff would provide a sufficient amount of iron without adding to much copper. It would help if you provided more information, such as, lighting, size tank, inhabitants and best of all a link to your local water authority.
     
  9. jarthel

    jarthel Junior Poster

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    This is a new tank (new everything including filter/media)

    tank: 48in(l)x18in(w)x28in(h)
    lighting: 1 hour of 2x 54W t5 + 6 hours 2x150w + 1 hour of 2x54W
    fish: rainbowfish which seems to be a hardy species
    water analysis: http://www.awqc.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/674F778A-7129-4E0F-9F5C-AD2A5EF28BB3/0/5yeardata04_09.xls (Happy Valley system)

     
  10. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Well, I had a problem opening the link, but I'm hoping your with Sunrise Water Authority, Happy Valley, OR. The range of copper levels for that area are 0-0.38ppm. My experience with tanks your size (100 gallons it looks like) is nonexistent, but the water column is probably close to 322L. Adding 1/4 tsp of your trace mix should be about right for that size tank. This would increase the weekly copper levels (0.038ppm from the tap water) by an additional 0.047ppm/dose*3. So, at the end of the week, Cu levels are ~0.18ppm. :eek: That would mean it's going to be very important that you stay on top of your 60% water changes. For that mater, you might try getting a few RCS after your tank cycles, just to see how they are responding to the copper. They might become fish food later, but while you setup the tank their a great canary in the coal mine. Also, consider using CSM+B for trace instead of what you have. You can get it here http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/ This would provide a better balance of trace (more Fe with less Cu and Zn). Q. Are you going to be adding KNO3 and KH2PO4?

    For lighting and filtration with tanks that deep you might want to start another thread to ask what other's think. I'm deep, but not that deep. My 2 Cents worth about lighting, if you run only the two T5HO for ten hours you should get slow sustained growth and less algae. There are some experts out there that will give you more information on how high to raise your lights above the tank, how long to run the 150w halide (should be ok to remove one), etc., but one halide should be all you need, if any. Light is what establishes the measure for non-limiting nutrients (CO2 + fertilizer). Adding the fertilizer is easy. Getting the CO2 right is the hard part. If you keep the lighting to just the T5's your going to have time to learn the rest of EI and get CO2 to levels you need to prevent algae.
     
    #10 Tug, Jan 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2010
  11. jarthel

    jarthel Junior Poster

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    The link is an excel file so you may not have an excel reader. I've saved the required contents to a html file. Please see attached.

    thanks again :)
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi jarthel,
    I have an old mac book. That could be why I'm having trouble with the zip file/attachment or likely it's a combination of things. What interests me are the levels of any listed micro and macro nutrients, and the pH, KH and GH of the water (I am assuming it's tap water) going into your tank. Anything that might stand out is good to bring to light. Maybe I'll get lucky and someone able to open your file, will read to me what's relevant, or maybe there's a link to your local water authority. Of course this is only helpful if you are interested in fine tuning EI to meet your needs. If you are, then you should also explain what you are dosing other then trace and what your goals are for this tank. That information is more useful then what is in your drinking water. It is after all, drinking water. How bad can it be?
     
    #12 Tug, Jan 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2010
  13. S&KGray

    S&KGray Guru Class Expert

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    Attached Files:

  14. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    A great help. Thank you S&KGray. I'll take a closer look, but I see nothing that stands out. Copper levels are a little higher then I first thought, but nothing to worry about. Nice levels of calcium and magnesium.

    I only made it to your part of the world once Gray, but it was well worth the plane ride. Stopped here more then once or twice though.

    JO JO'S.jpg
     
    #14 Tug, Jan 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2010
  15. jarthel

    jarthel Junior Poster

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    here's tha screenshot of the analysis. thanks again :)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. jarthel

    jarthel Junior Poster

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    any dosing suggestion for both the trace mix/chelated iron?

    thank you :)
     
  17. DaBub

    DaBub Guru Class Expert

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    seriously do not use the 'local mix'
     
  18. jarthel

    jarthel Junior Poster

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    plantex, tropica and other popular traces are unavailable to me. except for seachem trace I suppose.
     
  19. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I'm all about pushing the limits of some things. That often means going too far, just to find out where and when we've gone to far. I did this to a small degree with nitrate. I wanted to see what all the hubbub was about. Now, I keep my nitrate levels much lower then the outer ranges I was hitting, but I was able to see there is a much broader range for nitrate then some people were saying. I spend a lot of time trying to find the lower ranges that provide non-limiting amounts of chemical salts, from which plants make there nutrients, to prevent loading up on excessive amounts of wasted chemicals. For a micro-nutrient like Cu the non-limiting amount needed to sustain plant growth is quite low. Too much higher and it becomes toxic to both plants and fish.

    The EPA has determined that the MCLG (Maximum Contaminant Level Goal) for copper is 1.3ppm. Pushing that limit is not going to garner a lot of support. But people still swim where there are signs prohibiting it. As long as you are making an informed decision, free will is still God's gift to mankind. However, the levels of Cu and Zn in your trace are much higher then they need to be, IMO. But who am I. On any given day your tap water still contains 1/3 less Cu then my tap water (0.1ppm). Your "local" trace however, has over 10x more Cu then CSM + B Plantex. I'm suggesting you get CSM+B mailed to you.
    If you feel you must use your "local" trace, remember the levels in the water column accumulate over time, and between water changes. A 50% water change only removes at best 1/2 of what we've added.

    For a 100 gallon tank with a 322L water column:
    1/8 tsp "local" trace ~0.05ppm Fe (in contrast 1/8 tsp CSM ~0.1ppm)
    Cu ~0.023ppm (in contrast 1/8 tsp CSM ~0.002ppm)
    Zn ~
    In addition add:
    1/16-1/8 tsp EDTA-Fe adds ~ 0.1- 0.2ppm Fe

    Contact aquarium fertilizer, get some CSM+B and ease your worried mind.
    Or, as my barefooted friend would say, "seriously do not use the 'local mix."
     
    #19 Tug, Jan 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2010
  20. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Where Are You?

    Hi,

    Can you share your location, sometimes there are people about who know the substitutes that are available or work arounds.

    I would really advise against that local mix.

    Biollante
     
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