This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. We are after as many aquarium plant images that we can get, doing so will assist us in completing the aquarium plant database.

    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
    Dismiss Notice

EI doesn't address Na and Cl requirements

Discussion in 'Estimative Index' started by Solcielo lawrencia, Aug 9, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Both of these nutrients are required for plant growth but aren't addressed. Sodium is required for proper ionic balance and certain physiological processes. Chlorine is also required for many physiological processes including the uptake of potassium. So why aren't they addressed? What are the consequences of low sodium and chloride levels?
     
  2. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    I don't think either are required at significant levels. Tap water and fish food, I imagine, provide plenty. Besides, it's insanely easy to fix the problem with a pinch of table salt.
     
  3. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Yes, I know it's easy to add table salt but that's not my question. My tap water can have less than 3ppm of chloride which may be used up rather quickly. It's also sometimes low in sodium, less than 3ppm. What are the minimum levels that tanks should have to prevent deficiencies? What does Na and Cl deficiencies look like in aquatic plants? If we don't know what it looks like, we don't know when to add table salt.
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,694
    Likes Received:
    728
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Plants can sub K+ for Na+, and often does when Na+ is too high.


    Cl, many salts have this and Na+ as trace amounts.


    I've not added any of either in my tanks and my tap is very pure.


    3 ppm of Na and Cl is still plenty..........
     
  5. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    I ask about these two nutrients because I've been having perpetual problems with Hygrophila pinnatifida and the appearance of potassium deficiency (pinholes, necrosis) that no amount of potassium dosing (even as much as 150+ppm/week) has prevented. Hygrophila "Compacta" also suffers from this issue. So it's unlikely that it's a potassium deficiency and I've ruled out every other nutrient and CO2 as the cause. The only thing I haven't ruled out are sodium and chloride which is why I ask about it. I'm currently adding NaCl to see if there are any improvements in growth to see if this ameliorates the problems.
     
  6. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Yeah, I've noticed this pseudo-K deficiency symptom in my Kompakt older leaves. There is no macro or trace deficiency in my tank as far as I can tell. I have high K. By elimination, it leaves CO2 and/or something else. It certainly doesn't keep the plant from growing vigorously though...
     
  7. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    I've ruled out CO2 as the factor. After more than a year of experimenting with and eliminating every variable I knew of, I was at a complete loss to the point where I thought of getting rid of the Hygros completely. Then it occurred to me that sodium and chloride were ones that I've never even considered because I thought plants didn't need them and were detrimental to growth. It doesn't grow vigorously in my tanks as it did when I first got the plant.
     
  8. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Assuming your water has none and you have the same water as before…have you reduced the number of fish? Because fish food could be a source of Na and Cl.


    Otherwise, I'd think that you'd have your answer in about 2-3 weeks tops, after adding a little table salt. This discussion is easy to settle. I've not collected this plant in the wild, but it could have estuarine distribution, needing a tad more salt. Don't know.


    Somehow, I suspect Na and Cl are not the culprits.


    There are people who grow this pinnatifida and Kompakt without any fuss. Or pinholes. Sadly, I'm not one of them. They're not adding high levels of K either.


    Could it be…something causing an issue with K uptake? If not CO2, I'd put my money on the uptake interference theory. In that case, your next experiment ought to be to maintain K and reduce everything else. Or reduce EVERYTHING.


    Just tossing out ideas…
     
  9. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    It's the same water and I've never had much fish in the tank. I didn't think Na and Cl were even required for plant metabolism and actually thought they were detrimental. Crop studies indicate otherwise and experiments using KCl vs. K2SO4 showed that KCl had much higher crop yields, indicating that it was chloride that provided the improvement in growth. In one study, it found that of the four fertilizers tested, it was NaCl that resulted in the highest crop yield, followed next by KCl.


    I did notice a correlation between adding excessive amounts of micronutrients in the form of CSM+B and it appeared to exacerbate the pinholes with massive necrosis. By excessive, to the point where it killed all of the shrimp (nerve damage: shaking, unsteady movements) and snails (lethargy), probably due to the high amounts of copper, and caused swollen gills in some fish. So I backed off the CSM+B and it seemed to improve growth. But the issues still persist. So CSM+B is probably not the primary cause but there may be a correlation between high levels of CSM+B and pinholes/necrosis in H. pinnatifida.


    I've also tried reducing all nutrients except for K. It didn't help and only caused the plants to stunt and GSA to quickly appear. Experiment quickly abandoned.


    There are many other experiments to test various fertz and CO2 over the past year and none helped. So by a process of elimination, I was left with only two nutrients that I didn't test.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Chlorine is necessary for the uptake of potassium because it activates several enzymes and is necessary for the transport of cations such as Ca, Mg, and K.


    Source: http://fritind.com/pdf/CHLORIDE,%20MOLYBDENUM,%20COBALT,%20VANADIUM_nutri.PDF


    So if chloride is low, then it can't transport these cations as effectively which may be the reason for the appearance of K deficiency (even though it's surrounded by more than 150ppm of potassium ions). How do you pick up a billion jelly beans if you don't have hands? So I'm really hoping that chloride is the issue. Also, by using NaCl as opposed to KCl, I'm able to eliminate potassium as the cause of the pinholes, if indeed it's a chloride deficiency mediating a potassium deficiency. If I used KCl, then I wouldn't be able to deduce which ion is the problem.
     
  10. jbs47

    jbs47 Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    32
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    I have same issues with both pinnatifida and Kompakt in a fully planted 20 G with pressurized CO2, RO water ( tds kept below 100 ), EI dosed with Fe and K on odd days, water is supplemented with Brightwell K and Mg additive but not every time, Ph around 6.6. Water temp in mid 80,s. Also have a problem with fine root growth on lower sections of some stem plants.
     
  11. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Solcielo - I should have mentioned…about once a month or so, I use CaCl2 instead of CaSO4 after water changes. Six tsp of CaCl2 or so. So I have PLENTY of chloride ions floating about. I don't use CaCl2 more often because I'm not sure what too much chloride will do. I toy with calcium chloride because I wanted to see if there'd be any difference in my Alternanthera leaf tips. Did not notice any difference, as I suspected. The only advantage I can think of is speed of dissolution. Reaction is mildly exothermic…not a big deal.


    And my Kompakt still have some pinholes. :) The problem isn't very noticeable and the plants are far from unsightly.


    Sodium and chlorine are probably needed in really small amounts - levels easily provided by water changes and fish feeding. I'd say it's hard to reach suboptimal levels.


    Like I said, this is an issue that's easily settled. You'll have your answer in 2-3 weeks, when the young leaves on top become slightly older and ragged. I suspect we'll all be back here still scratching out collective heads.
     
  12. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Pikez, were the pinholes there from before adding CaCl2 or did they occur afterward?
     
  13. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    The pinholes were there before CaCl2 and not much different after. The lowest leaves on my Kompakt always have yellow-ringed pinholes. Even though the plants themselves are huge, aggressive, healthy monsters.


    The most recent Kasselmann book has tons of water analysis data from several rivers, lakes and streams. Based on that, I'd think you only need a couple of ppm of Na and Cl to meet requirements. I'd be shocked if they ever become limiting.


    My trace element dosing is on the rich side. I wouldn't be surprised if I have a bit too much traces. So it's entirely possible that the pinhole thing and some of the other chronic minor issues (like the Kompakt pinholes, Ammania twisted new leaves) are induced issues from a bit too much Manganese or zinc, something else. I don't know. But I will test the theory. Like light, trace minerals are another one of those 'more is not necessarily better' things.
     
  14. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Pikez, So how much ppm of chloride is added with CaCl? Did you also add enough potassium?
     
  15. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    About 17 ppm Chloride. Probably an unnatural level. That is why I do this every 4-6 weeks or so.


    Yes, always have K. Probably about 20-25 ppm. Add K2SO4 in addition to KNO3.
     
  16. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    17ppm isn't very much. If Hygrophila's tend to be chloride hogs, then that could explain the appearance of K deficiency, because it's running out of chloride.


    My tap ranges from <3-15ppm of Cl, averaging 9ppm. Sometimes, H. pinna grows great for no reason. Then they peter out. It doesn't seem to correlate with anything I've done which makes it even more confounding.


    Since adding NaCl, Rotala wallichii, which has been struggling severely for months (new leaves grow but then die back to the stem and turn black), is growing new leaves. Maybe chloride (or sodium) is the cause...
     
  17. PhilipS

    PhilipS Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2014
    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    23
    Local Time:
    6:33 PM
    So is NaCl (Aquarium Salt) safe to add to a planted tank when added to a tank at water change intervals with RO/DI water; at a rate of 1TBSP/ 5G or 20L ?
     
  18. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,694
    Likes Received:
    728
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    The cation K+ is generally loaded in the vacuole with the anions NO3, SO4, PO4 or a dozen or so organics like malate.


    That's the bulk of the plant's cell salt. Chloride is one.


    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-4658.2011.08370.x/pdf


    My tap is about 5ppm or less as Chloride average. My tap is pretty soft and pure. If you use 100% RO, maybe..........
     
    2 people like this.
  19. Solcielo lawrencia

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,007
    Likes Received:
    44
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    Na=349ppm


    Cl=533ppm


    Not safe. You'll kill all your plants.
     
    2 people like this.
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,694
    Likes Received:
    728
    Local Time:
    1:33 AM
    I've had very high Cl, KCL water softener I cannot by pass, okay for many plants.


    Na+ is the sucker you got to worry about.
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice