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EI and SeaChem Equilibrium

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by mastin, Oct 26, 2011.

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  1. mastin

    mastin Junior Poster

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    Hi folks,
    I have hard well water and I read Tom's post on dosing EI and noted for his example tank: "SeaChem Equilibrium 1/8 teaspoon after water change."
    From testing when the well was drilled I know I have plenty CaCO3 and free iron. Is it likely I could skip adding the Equilibrium?
    Thanks! David

    I see on SeaChem's page:
    Soluble Potassium (K20)
    23.0%
    Calcium (Ca)
    8.06%
    Magnesium (Mg)
    2.41%
    Soluble Iron (Fe)
    0.11%
    Soluble Manganese (Mn)
    0.06%
     
    #1 mastin, Oct 26, 2011
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Information Please

    Hi David,


    Information helps…:)



    Can you tell us about your tank? What you are trying to do?:confused:


    As for the iron from the well, it is not likely to be in a plant friendly form.

    As always it depends, what you are trying to do and exactly what is in the water from the well, whether you need to continue Seachem Equilibrium. Do you have a water report you can share?


    Will you share where you are located?:confused:


    Biollante
     
    #2 Biollante, Oct 26, 2011
  3. mastin

    mastin Junior Poster

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    Seachem Equilibrium and CSM+B, folks using both?

    Good questions Biollante.
    Below you'll see my water testing from my 45 foot deep well drilled in Central Arkansas. The middle sample is when the system is working perfectly.
    I have about $4,000 of water filtration equipment due to the fact I have over 10ppm iron in my well water (http://mywaterfiltration.blogspot.com/).
    I use chlorine injection (water sits in a holding tank for iron precipitation, a calcite/corosex tank to raise pH and capture iron particles, a centaur carbon tank to remove chlorine and capture iron particles (it's a catalytic/adsorptive carbon that also removes hydrogen sulfide), a MTM tank for iron removal (MTM is a granular manganese dioxide filtering media regenerated with washes of potassium permanginate), and a standard water softener. There is new electrolytic hydrolysis based technology that may the answer for folks with really high iron. But the start up costs are high and my system is working for now. Also, there's some talk of city water if we can get a federal grant for it, so fingers crossed.
    When everything is working perfectly my tap water is soft with no detectable iron. But, usually there is iron bleed through and my water is fairly hard (KH ~6to7 and GH 20 or so). So I imagine I have plenty of calcium/magnesium.
    Regarding Seachem Equilibrium I guess I wonder about the manganese and k2o, but I suppose with standard EI/CSM+B I'm fine?
    I'm making another run at getting a variety of plants running with a higher tech CO2 setup (http://fwaquarium.blogspot.com/).
    Do most folks use CSM+B these days? It seemed I read that Tom might use an ADA product for his micros?
    Thanks a bunch! David
    [​IMG][/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]
     
    #3 mastin, Oct 27, 2011
  4. mastin

    mastin Junior Poster

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    Of course, I'm thinking with so much variability and so many unknowns it might make sense for me to invest in a RO unit for the aquarium.
    Just don't tell my wife.
    David
     
    #4 mastin, Oct 27, 2011
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Not All That Bad...

    Hi David,

    I do not think your water is so bad.    :)

    There may be a couple of sensitive critters or plants, but I have seen much worse.    :eek:

    A couple of ideas later...

    Biollante
     
    #5 Biollante, Oct 27, 2011
  6. mastin

    mastin Junior Poster

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    Aw, thanks for the reply.
    Yeah, I've always had the mentality that I'd work with what I have, so I might stick with it.
    I'm thinking some Seachem Chemsorb might be called for if I want to keep shrimp.
    I'm thinking standard EI/CSM+B I'm fine without equilibrium is fine?
    Do most folks use CSM+B these days?
    Thanks David
     
    #6 mastin, Oct 27, 2011
  7. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    From my experience talking to the average hobbyist around here, most people swear by the Seachem line of products. I like to use CSM+B with some additions for magnesium and a more bioavailable iron source. To be honest, calcium deficiency isn't a problem I've ever observed before; at a blind shot in the dark I'd say maybe the magnesium is switching out for it, or feeding provides enough.
     
    #7 Philosophos, Oct 27, 2011
  8. mastin

    mastin Junior Poster

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    Thank you for your thoughts.
    I'm getting back into the hobby and implementing EI/CSM+B for the first time and trying to determine what folks might be doing additionally by default.
    Other than EI/CSM+B I add Pfertz root fertz to the substrate, but that's it (lighting, fish food, and Co2 of course).
    By what method do you add magnesium and bioavailable iron?
    I have a full line of Pfertz, Tropica Plant Nutrition Liquid, and various Seachem Flourish products on hand.
    Thank you! David
     
    #8 mastin, Oct 27, 2011
  9. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    This site has powder Fe. There are plenty out there, this is just my personal choice. Can't really help with the magnesium, I've stuck with the CSM+B for that.
     
    #9 csmith, Oct 27, 2011
  10. mastin

    mastin Junior Poster

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    Thanks that's very kind of you to let me know. Sounds like you're adding the powder Fe as a supplement to CSM+B.
    Is this very common? What led you to this if you don't mind me asking.
    David
     
    #10 mastin, Oct 28, 2011
  11. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    David, are you the guy who started the aquatic plant podcast? If so, thanks for doing it. It was a wonderful idea.

    As for the ferts, csmith is pointing you to where I order my iron. I believe the gluconate currently being carried is between citrate and hedta for stability. The best price on epsom salts is still the pharmacy section of your local grocery store; they usually sell 2lb+ of MgSO4.7H2O (epsom salts) at less than $2/lb.
     
    #11 Philosophos, Oct 28, 2011
  12. pat w

    pat w Member

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    MgSO4.7H2O (epsom salts) - 10.14 mg per liter for 1ppm Mg. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm using a calculator I generated form a list of atomic weights.
     
    #12 pat w, Oct 28, 2011
  13. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Well Thereabouts

    Hi Pat,


    Well close enough. :rolleyes::gw


    Biollante
     
    #13 Biollante, Oct 28, 2011
  14. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Oops, I left off one oxygen in the calculator. Correct value is 11.141mg in 1 liter for 1 ppm Mg.

    Pretty forgiving there, Bio. 10% is a fair amount off in my book.

    Pat
     
    #14 pat w, Oct 28, 2011
  15. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Well Someone is A Fair Amount Off

    Hi Pat,

    Well I may just be stupid, but...     :)

    From my outdated, but not that outdated CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 86[SUP]th[/SUP] edition, pages 1-7 and 8, I learned the atomic weights involved.    :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
    {Sorry you will have to look up Sulphur yourself to make sure I am not lying, I feel like I am violating the copyright as it is (fair use I think)}

    Now I tend to “eyeball” things and it sure looked to my faltering eyes that the weight of the Magnesium was a little shy of 10% of the total weight of the Epsom salt.

    • Therefore I knew, or thought I knew until you publicly “corrected” me that it must take just a little over 10-mg of Epsom salt in a 1-liter solution to yield 1-ppm Magnesium.
    • So I figured, I gather incorrectly that you, using one of them thar, fancified calculators must have done the exact math, :)
    • but apparently my faith was misplaced and :eek:
    • you showed me up for the fraud I am…:(
    • So, I wrote it out in much more detail than I would ever use myself.
    [​IMG]


    It actually works out to 9.8610% and dad-blame-it that comes out to 10.139-mg of Epsom salt to yield 1-ppm Mg in a 1-liter solution.

    Then utterly confused I decided to see what that smart feller Wet had to say…

    [​IMG]

    Hmmm, he didn’t do any better than I did, dad-gummed, I’ll try the Fertilator, them folks is pretty darned smart…

    [​IMG]

    Well, we all stupid…

    I am so glad Dan is back from now on no more calculating.

    Biollante
     
    #15 Biollante, Oct 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2011
  16. mastin

    mastin Junior Poster

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    I'm learning much. Thanks for your considered replies!
    So here's a noob question.
    If most folks are adding iron and/or magnesium couldn't the basic recipe of CSM+B eventually be altered?
    It is pretty much sacrosanct at this point or could that happen?
    And hey Dan! Yes my wife and I were responsible for The Planted Aquarium Podcast.
    I also just read your thread concerning your departure and return to the hobby.
    I must have departed and returned about the same times. he he Welcome back!
    We very much enjoyed recording and producing the podcast. I wonder if it's still possible to listen to the Tom Barr interview via iTunes?
    The problem was that any degree of post production requires a few hours editing. I'd spend a couple hours recruiting a guest and writing script. A couple hours recording. And a few hours in post production and management of the web hosting. In the end it was a part-time job. I have a bi-weekly gaming podcast today with about 3000 listeners, but I share responsibilities with a semi-professional editor and script writer. Much less work.
    I do love the idea of a planted aquarium podcast. I know Art at ScapeFu has produced some planted aquarium episodes. Maybe now that I'm back in the hobby I'll find someone to share the load and get back into it. For the most part, it's a strangely thankless task though. It occurs to me that if anyone reading this enjoys listening to podcasts, we should all send our favorites a contribution, content submission, and/or a thank you! Thanks Dan for remembering us and our minor contribution to the hobby!
    David
     
    #16 mastin, Oct 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2011
  17. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Biollante,
    My time away, and my little time back, and my reflections have lead me to a blinding flash of the obvious. There is no hobbyist tank for which the concentration of +/-10% of anything we directly dose or measure, matters. The ritual of precision math only exists, so that the same principles don't get screwed up when it counts on larger scales.

    David,
    The +B is already a modification on the original Plantex CSM. It's the hobbyist online shops, not the manufacturers, who dump in boric acid. The higher/easier iron is a relatively new thing, and it's not well-proven in the hobbyist aquarium. The fact is that it's cheap to add more, there's some good principles behind it, and it doesn't hurt. For a stock solution, I toss in roughly 10x more epsom salts than CSM+B. Why pay to ship 9/10 epsom salts, when they're sitting in every supermarket? The stuff tends to clump in large granules as well, meaning it would be hard to keep a good mechanical mixture.
    I think I've got the Tom interview hiding around on my hard drive somewhere; listened to it a couple of times over. I was actually one of the people slated to interview with the two of you, before it got canceled. I can't say I blame you for canceling it either, and you certainly put more into it than I would've. Hours of labor without thanks from my plants was all I could take.
    I'll check out ScapeFu tomorrow after I get some sleep.
     
    #17 Philosophos, Oct 29, 2011
  18. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    “Plantex Nutritrace CSM,” the “CSM” (Chelated Secondary Micronutrient

    Hi Pat, David, All,

    Sorry Pat, I didn’t mean for my previous post to come out quite so snotty. :eek:


    A big company produces “Plantex Nutritrace CSM,” the “CSM” (Chelated Secondary Micronutrient) so the basic product is not likely to change.


    The “+B” part is the Boron added by remarketers such as Planted Aquarium Fertilizer. http://aquariumfertilizer.com/

    Of course adding anything dilutes the content of everything else, so adding more Epsom salts to meet your individual needs is cheap and easy, kind of like me.:eek:


    Biollante
     
    #18 Biollante, Oct 29, 2011
  19. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    One one-thousandth of a milligram

    Hi Dan,


    Oddly enough, I am the one who always told you there is no need for all the places past the decimal point.


    • I seem to remember a different response anyway

    I am giving up the math and figuring and troubleshooting stuff.


    • No one likes it or cares.


    That is just more of my drivel, I was actually trying to be funny when it came to Pat’s 10.14-mg of Epsom salt.

    I do my arithmetic on a scrap of paper or a white board so it is rare for me to go past two-significant digits, unless there is a particular point to be made and here I thought there was, probably wrong again. My “precise” answer is [SUP]1[/SUP]⁄[SUB]1000 [/SUB][SUP]th[/SUP] of a milligram than his original answer, I will stand by my original post.

    Biollante
     
    #19 Biollante, Oct 29, 2011
  20. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Ya... no comment. I'm so not starting off by digging up this drama again.
     
    #20 Philosophos, Oct 29, 2011
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