DTPA, are some % forms more toxic than others?

jonny_ftm

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Hi,
Looking desperately to order DTPA here in Europe, I can't find anything reliable (not from China/asia to avoid contaminants on a low maintenance tank).

While seraching I found this table, on Dissolvine brand name DTPA:


Dissolvine® D-Fe-3 ------- liquid --------------------- DTPA-FeNa2 ------ 3.1%
Dissolvine® D-Fe-6 ------- liquid --------------------- DTPA-Fe(NH4)2 --- 6.1
Dissolvine® D-Fe-7 ------- microgranular ------------- DTPA-FeNa2 ------ 6.9%
Dissolvine® D-Fe-11 ------ crystals ------------------ DTPA-FeHNa ------ 11.6%

So, 3% and 7% have double sodium than 11% form and 6% bring ammonium (NH4) to the tank

I'm a bit disappointed, but 11% seems the way to go here
 

jonny_ftm

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Your link seems they're based in US, will be hard to get things from them to Europe I believe...
 

nipat

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Sequestrene is product line of Ciba-Geigy which is quite European.
I'm surprised it's hard to find there. By the way, I'm not sure about
the origin of ferts these days. OEM products from China are everywhere.:confused:
 

Tom Barr

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I thought S 330 was made in Spain?
Might be branded under a different trade name.

Ask AE there in the UK for it.
I think he should have some.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

jonny_ftm

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nipat;46353 said:
Sequestrene is product line of Ciba-Geigy which is quite European.
I'm surprised it's hard to find there.

Sequestrene found here is pure EDDHA, there's not the DTPA version available anywhere

Tom Barr;46360 said:
Ask AE there in the UK for it.
I think he should have some.

Sorry but whose AE?

Thank you all for your help

I also contacted Rex Grigg as I see he stocks some
 

nipat

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jonny_ftm;46314 said:
Hi,
Looking desperately to order DTPA here in Europe, I can't find anything reliable (not from China/asia to avoid contaminants on a low maintenance tank).

While seraching I found this table, on Dissolvine brand name DTPA:


Dissolvine® D-Fe-3 ------- liquid --------------------- DTPA-FeNa2 ------ 3.1%
Dissolvine® D-Fe-6 ------- liquid --------------------- DTPA-Fe(NH4)2 --- 6.1
Dissolvine® D-Fe-7 ------- microgranular ------------- DTPA-FeNa2 ------ 6.9%
Dissolvine® D-Fe-11 ------ crystals ------------------ DTPA-FeHNa ------ 11.6%

So, 3% and 7% have double sodium than 11% form and 6% bring ammonium (NH4) to the tank

I'm a bit disappointed, but 11% seems the way to go here

From http://www2.itap.purdue.edu/MSDS/docs/1285.pdf
Sequestrene 330 is DTPA Pentasodium (Na5).

Not sure if this means Dissolvine® D-Fe-11 is the better choice.:confused:
 

Philosophos

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The 11.6% caries the least amount of sodium. To find out how much sodium you're adding in relation to iron, use this formula:

(ppm Fe)*(atomic mass of sodium / atomic mass of iron)

There's 1 iron for every sodium, and lets say you're dosing 1ppm Fe:

=1*22.98976928/55.845
=0.4116710

In essence, the sodium level will always be about 41% of the iron with this compound. Given how low iron is dosed, I highly doubt there's any meaningful toxicity issues with regards to the sodium content even if you were to push the ~8ppm Fe luxury uptake observed in some species of macrophyte.
 

Tom Barr

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ww.aquariumfertilizer.com sells and ships anywhere in the world.
They sell the DTPA and now, thanks to me, Fe gluconate as well as CMS+B and most anything else you want.

I think they might even start selling ADA Aquasoil.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

jonny_ftm

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Tom Barr;46399 said:
ww.aquariumfertilizer.com sells and ships anywhere in the world.
Thank you for the link. Their CaCl2 isn't mentioned if anydrous, 2H2O or 6H2O!
Also, they don't mention the iron chelate (edta, dtpa, gluconate...) and in title they write 13% while in description 10%!

Can I trust them? I emailed them for more info, but if anyone dealed with them and can add precisions to their products, it will be great. I was always pleased with Rex services, but he seems to be very busy lately...

Philosophos;46364 said:
The 11.6% caries the least amount of sodium. To find out how much sodium you're adding in relation to iron, use this formula:
(ppm Fe)*(atomic mass of sodium / atomic mass of iron)
There's 1 iron for every sodium, and lets say you're dosing 1ppm Fe:
=1*22.98976928/55.845
=0.4116710
In essence, the sodium level will always be about 41% of the iron with this compound. Given how low iron is dosed, I highly doubt there's any meaningful toxicity issues with regards to the sodium content even if you were to push the ~8ppm Fe luxury uptake observed in some species of macrophyte.

Thank you very much for the math. I'm now reassured on dosing this
What do you think about the 6%, carrying ammonia?
 

Philosophos

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Tom Barr;46399 said:
ww.aquariumfertilizer.com sells and ships anywhere in the world.
They sell the DTPA and now, thanks to me, Fe gluconate as well as CMS+B and most anything else you want.

It's good to know that they ship anywhere; it must've been my settings.

Sold DTPA may be more like it; they just switched me with EDTA on zero notice a few days back. Site said 10%, description said 10%, receipt said 10%, bag said 13% and looked darker, Julia confirmed it was EDTA. I'm fortunate that it doesn't cloud.

I agree with jonny; it's kind of a pain that they don't label their hydrates or chelates. Don't get me wrong; your ferts are great, I've got zero complaints about the compounds that I get from you indirectly. The issue is more their labeling and customer service.

jonny_ftm said:
What do you think about the 6%, carrying ammonia?
I think you'll be getting 65% of your iron weight in ammonia. For every 1ppm Fe, you'll get ~.65ppm NH4. The question is whether your pH, temp and plant uptake will prevent this from being toxic. If you're only dosing .33ppm Fe 3x a week, then you'll be adding about .21ppm NH4. If your temp is below 86 degrees and your pH below 7.5, then odds are it wont' be a problem once you account for plant uptake (or perhaps even nitrogen cycle in a non-planted). I'm guessing in practice it won't be an issue when you think about how many of us dose TPN+ which is urea loaded, and providing far more NH4 than this.
 

Tom Barr

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I think working with the Julia helps, she can use help and is pretty good about shipping stuff etc, so we really cannot expect the seller to know all and do all for many products.
They do have to sell rather sit around and research every little whim. That does not interest her.

So offer advice and help, ask questions etc to see.

Regards,

Tom Barr
 

jonny_ftm

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Bad news :-(

Here's her answer to my email:

Hello,
The calcium chloride is CaCl2-2H2O. The iron chelate is 13% and is chelated with EDTA. I will be having ferrous gluconate which is chelated with DTPA available in a few days for $13 per half lb. I hope this is helpful. Have a great day and thank you for your business. Julia Kaufmann, aquariumfertilizer.com

As Tom and philosophos said, they don't seem to be a trusted source in products description sadely.
So, I'm left alone looking for a good source of DTPA in Europe, if anyone can help/deliver me!

Also, thank you Philosophos for the warnings about NH4, I'll avoid the 6% chelate to be on the safe side with sensitive critters
 

Tug

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It's just a whim, LMAO.

That's what happens when someone from shipping responds to the emails they know nothing about.
 

Philosophos

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Ya, I got an e-mail today. The gluconate is there and just being written up. I can't wait to give it a try.
 

Tom Barr

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Tug;46441 said:
That's what happens when someone from shipping responds to the emails they know nothing about.

Yes, Tug is correct.

True, she just got it. So it will be a bit before they get the product written up.
The CaCl2 is the typical CaCl2 *2H2O

The DTPA, ETDA thing is going to take a bit to work out.
I think some things got confused there.

these are the common sold DTPA and other products from Sequestrene brand:

http://www.beckerunderwood.com/en/products/sequestrene

So 138 is for marine systems, 330 is what we want and is about 10%.

I thought they sold DTPA, but it sounds like it's the ETDA Fe only mix.

I use 330 myself and have some 138 for other things, but bought these long ago.
Fe Gluconate is not chelated with DTPA.

She just got confused. Gluconate is the chelator.

I'll send her an email and see if they will carry the DTPA sequestrene 330 and maybe the 138 as well.
Becker in right here south of Sac, I know them. Big outfit, so they get the stuff by the pallet load.

So give her some time, she's just confused.
She wants to sell folks what they want as things change.

Hence the Fe gluconate, and the DTPA etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Tom Barr

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See if seraching for those brand names there will help. No sense in shipping it from Spain, to here and back again.
We can find it easily on ebay. They might ship to Europe, but you will pay a fair amount for shipping.





Regards,
Tom Barr
 

jonny_ftm

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Thanks Tom for all your help,

Here, Sequestrene "Rapid" is the only lable found, EDDHA only. Most sources are EDTA.
I looked for Sequestrene 330 and most other search terms (Fe, 10%, DTPA...) but nothing

On ebay, Sequestrene 330 is available in 5lb bags only :-(
Dissolvine answered me negatively, they don't ship to detailers and only very large quantities.