DSM, dry start method: New(?) method to make a nice rug of HC before you add water

Status
Not open for further replies.

orion2001

Guru Class Expert
Mar 27, 2008
110
0
16
Thanks for pointing that out Vaughn. I was just worried from your GW/BBA experience with your tank with the 2x20 W CFLs and excel dosing. I'll be doing exactly the same and I really don't wanna risk algae. Do you think the light wasn't to blame in your tank?

Also anyone have any idea what I should do regarding trimming the hairgrass right now in its emersed state?
 

orion2001

Guru Class Expert
Mar 27, 2008
110
0
16
Well here is my final update regarding my efforts growing Dwarf Hairgrass emersed:

Over head shot of tank 6 weeks ago:

img2784croppedvy9.jpg


Overhead shot of the tank today:

img3163croppedqq4.jpg



All-in-all I'm pretty happy with how things went. The hairgrass did grow quite tall once I upgraded my lights to 2x20 Watt CFLs. I think I'd have had better spread if I had given haircuts more often, but cleaning the bits of cut hairgrass in emersed tanks is really painful and I chose to be lazy and just not give any haircuts.

I'm waiting for a bunch of plants to come in in the next couple of days and then I'm going to fill the tank up and see how things go.
 

VaughnH

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 24, 2005
3,011
94
48
85
Sacramento, CA
orion2001;26215 said:
Well here is my final update regarding my efforts growing Dwarf Hairgrass emersed:

Over head shot of tank 6 weeks ago:

img2784croppedvy9.jpg


Overhead shot of the tank today:

img3163croppedqq4.jpg



All-in-all I'm pretty happy with how things went. The hairgrass did grow quite tall once I upgraded my lights to 2x20 Watt CFLs. I think I'd have had better spread if I had given haircuts more often, but cleaning the bits of cut hairgrass in emersed tanks is really painful and I chose to be lazy and just not give any haircuts.

I'm waiting for a bunch of plants to come in in the next couple of days and then I'm going to fill the tank up and see how things go.
Very impressive! It will be interesting to see how these do once flooded. Right now they really look good.
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
Once most of the foreground plants root well, they will take off like mad submersed, their growth is less in the emerged state, but the actual growth, dry weight biomass is little less submersed.

I have a tank with DSM Hair grass outside growing like mad.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 

LiamLiffey

Junior Poster
Jul 3, 2008
20
0
1
Hamburg, Germany
Hi folks,
my first post :)
I am very interested in setting up a new tank with dsm. But somehow I am not sure how to handle it. The layout will be way higher at the back. So it wont be possible to keep the soil from drying out from front to back. What can I do? Does the moisture in the air do the job?

Cheers
Axel
 

orion2001

Guru Class Expert
Mar 27, 2008
110
0
16
Tom Barr;26226 said:
Once most of the foreground plants root well, they will take off like mad submersed, their growth is less in the emerged state, but the actual growth, dry weight biomass is little less submersed.

I have a tank with DSM Hair grass outside growing like mad.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Hoppy, the hairgrass is doing amazingly well just like Tom mentions above. With excel and 30 WPG of CFL (which is pretty low. I had to swap out the 40 W CFL when I had BGA) the hairgrass is doing very well and sending runners all over the place. The only problem is that I don't know how to get it to send the runners under the ground. Almost 40-50% of the runners are being sent over the substrate surface. I'll update with new pics once I'm done with a new round of planting and some maintenance work on the tank.

The other problem is that the black sand is a little light and doesn't seem to weight the hairgrass down too well. This makes combing it out hard and messy. I'm having quite a bit of trouble in trying to keep the hairgrass portions clean.

Also I had a question regarding hairgrass in the planted tank. It is beginning to send runners to the far back of the tank where I intend to plant some stem plants/possibly blyxa later on. Do I need to aggressively pull the hairgrass out and cut the runners or will the stem plants be able to do fine with all the hairgrass in the back?
 

VaughnH

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 24, 2005
3,011
94
48
85
Sacramento, CA
I have never succeeded with hairgrass, always planted submersed, so I have very limited experience with it. My experience with another carpet plant, Hygrophila "Porto Velho", is that it will take over every square inch of the substrate, then start climbing up over itself and the other plants, unless you keep it pruned back.
 

Yassmeena

Junior Poster
Jul 4, 2008
6
0
1
Hey,

I have an existing tank with plants and fish, and would like to add an HC carpet.

I am strongly considering using the emersed method, but I don't have a spare tank with lights.

Can I use household lights for this method? If so, which ones would you suggest?

Also, what can I expect when transplanting the carpet grown by the emmersed method into my existing tank?

Thanks!!!
 

digiSalero

Junior Poster
Apr 30, 2007
15
0
1
I've been reading this forum topic on this technique and got inspired. I only wish I had known about this emersed technique before I started my planted tank.

The question I'd like to propose is: Are there are any good techniques out there for transplanting emersed HC into a tank that's already filled up and planted?

I'm attempting to try it with a little custom setup. I don't have any spare tanks to use, so I tried something that utilized my current lights and tank water. I would be very interested in hearing from people who have successfully tried this technique for a tank that is already filled and what process you used.

Here's my setup. I don't know if it will work or not but I'm optimistic. The plan is once they're grown in and well rooted I'll transplant the whole thing to the tank. The netting is suppose to help me retain the gravel while I place it in the tank. I normally have a sheet of plastic covering the cups for humidity and moisture but I took them off to take the picture.

TopProj.jpg


Here are the tank specs:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SIZE: 28 US gal. Bowfront. 19" (W) x 24" (H) x 12" (D)

LIGHTING: 2x65W CF 6500K, although I only use 1 of the bulbs for now run 10 hours/day. 2.3W/gal.

CO2: Pressurized. I'm kind of winging it right now. I haven't invested in a drop checker yet. I'm using ADA 30mm beetle ceramic diffuser and ADA basic bubble counter. I'm getting about 168 bpm. I don't know if it's too much or too little but I'm closely monitoring my fish, plants, and algae. I have the system on a timer and have it come on 1 hr. before the lights come on and off 30 min. before the lights turn off.

FILTER: Eheim ECCO 2232

SUBSTRATE: Combination of Eco-Complete and ADA Aquasoil Powder

MISC: Powerhead that sits above the CO2 forcing water down onto the front of the tank. The idea being that the CO2 will be circulated with the water down to the lower tank area. 160W heater maintaining about 80 deg. F.

DOSE: EI

Saturday, Monday, Wednesday

1/4tsp NO3
1/16 tsp KH2PO4
1/16 tsp K2SO4

Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday
10mL Flourish Trace (Recommended Dosage)

Everyday
5 mL Excel

Friday
50% water change + 15mL Excel
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't done a whole lot of scaping. I do a little here and there to keep it looking nice. I'm just letting it grow in at this point and playing with different plants.


The HC:
HCTop.jpg


I'm trying this technique with Lilaeopsis 'Mauritius' also:
HGTop.jpg


I'm doing the hairgrass the old fashion way:
TopAngle.jpg


I'd also appreciate any comments on my dosing strategy and setup. I know I'm missing a few things here and there (I'm working up to it). If there's anything obvious that I'm missing, I'd welcome the suggestions. A million thanks for this great website and resource.

Regards,
Fellow Aquarium Plant Enthusiast
 

Yassmeena

Junior Poster
Jul 4, 2008
6
0
1
digiSalero;26660 said:
I've been reading this forum topic on this technique and got inspired. I only wish I had known about this emersed technique before I started my planted tank.

The question I'd like to propose is: Are there are any good techniques out there for transplanting emersed HC into a tank that's already filled up and planted?

I'm attempting to try it with a little custom setup. I don't have any spare tanks to use, so I tried something that utilized my current lights and tank water. I would be very interested in hearing from people who have successfully tried this technique for a tank that is already filled and what process you used.

Here's my setup. I don't know if it will work or not but I'm optimistic. The plan is once they're grown in and well rooted I'll transplant the whole thing to the tank. The netting is suppose to help me retain the gravel while I place it in the tank. I normally have a sheet of plastic covering the cups for humidity and moisture but I took them off to take the picture.

TopProj.jpg


Here are the tank specs:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SIZE: 28 US gal. Bowfront. 19" (W) x 24" (H) x 12" (D)

LIGHTING: 2x65W CF 6500K, although I only use 1 of the bulbs for now run 10 hours/day. 2.3W/gal.

CO2: Pressurized. I'm kind of winging it right now. I haven't invested in a drop checker yet. I'm using ADA 30mm beetle ceramic diffuser and ADA basic bubble counter. I'm getting about 168 bpm. I don't know if it's too much or too little but I'm closely monitoring my fish, plants, and algae. I have the system on a timer and have it come on 1 hr. before the lights come on and 30 min. before the lights turn off.

FILTER: Eheim ECCO 2232

SUBSTRATE: Combination of Eco-Complete and ADA Aquasoil Powder

MISC: Powerhead that sits above the CO2 forcing water down onto the front of the tank. The idea being that the CO2 will be circulated with the water down to the lower tank area. 160W heater maintaining about 80 deg. F.

DOSE: EI

Saturday, Monday, Wednesday

1/4tsp NO3 x3
1/16 tsp KH2PO4 x3
1/16 tsp K2SO4 x3

Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday
10mL Flourish Trace (Recommended Dosage)

Everyday
5 mL Excel

Friday
50% water change + 15mL Excel
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't done a whole lot of scaping. I do a little here and there to keep it looking nice. I'm just letting it grow in at this point and playing with different plants.


The HC:
HCTop.jpg


I'm trying this technique with Lilaeopsis 'Mauritius' also:
HGTop.jpg


I'm doing the hairgrass the old fashion way:
TopAngle.jpg


I'd also appreciate any comments on my dosing strategy and setup. I know I'm missing a few things here and there (I'm working up to it). If there's anything obvious that I'm missing, I'd welcome the suggestions. A million thanks for this great website and resource.

Regards,
Fellow Aquarium Plant Enthusiast


I was wondering, where did you buy that netting? What is it exactly?
 

Yassmeena

Junior Poster
Jul 4, 2008
6
0
1
substrate

So this is my plan for growing the emersed HC which will be transplanted into my established tank ( I do not have spare tank unfortunately):

1 - set up sealed tupperwear containers floating above my tank water as above poster did - this way they can share the light and get some heat as well

2 - for substrate - black play, roof or pool sand rinsed well and add flourish tabs

3 - Mist with tank water every day

- Note: My lights are 48W, one pink and one 10,000k

What are your thoughts on my method, Tom?

Thanks for all your great advice!
 

digiSalero

Junior Poster
Apr 30, 2007
15
0
1
Yassmeena,

The netting is called tulle. It's the same material that "tutus" are made of. You can get them at hobby shops. You probably don't need to mist the plants if they're covered. The heat from the lights and the confined air space from the cover should provide enough humidity and moisture for the plants.

As far as the substrate, my suggestion would be to use a portion from the substrate already in your tank. This way, you're not really adding more substrate. You take a little "chunk", work the emersed magic, and put the "chunk" back.
 

VaughnH

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 24, 2005
3,011
94
48
85
Sacramento, CA
This is a way to make a lot of plants out of a few plants, but it doesn't accomplish the main goals of the dry start method, which are ease of planting, no algae problems, and no transplanting of the tiny little plants.
 

Yassmeena

Junior Poster
Jul 4, 2008
6
0
1
digiSalero;26678 said:
Yassmeena,

The netting is called tulle. It's the same material that "tutus" are made of. You can get them at hobby shops. You probably don't need to mist the plants if they're covered. The heat from the lights and the confined air space from the cover should provide enough humidity and moisture for the plants.

As far as the substrate, my suggestion would be to use a portion from the substrate already in your tank. This way, you're not really adding more substrate. You take a little "chunk", work the emersed magic, and put the "chunk" back.

hey digiSalero,

My current substrate is too big. I have Estee's gravel over Eco-complete. So I am going to take that all out and add a sand of somesort to my tank. I will be using the same substrate in the emmersion pots.
 

orion2001

Guru Class Expert
Mar 27, 2008
110
0
16
Just a quick update on my emersed hairgrass experiment. This is what it looks like right now:

frontviewjuly11ox9.jpg


The hairgrass really took off once it was submersed. Even with 30Watts total CFL lighting (which is pretty low) it has been sending runners out all over the place and getting very thick in regions of higher light. I'm actually on planning converting this into a completely low-tech, non Excel tank once I get very dense growth. I think the hairgrass should do fine in that setup, and most of the other plants that I have are also suited to that kind of setup.

A big thanks to Tom! I don't think I'd ever have managed to pull off such a nice hairgrass foreground without this technique...especially without algae issues.
 

intricacy

Junior Poster
Jul 19, 2008
4
0
1
nice orion! I've been following (lurking) your progress on this and other sites, and was really curious how it was going! I'm growing hairgrass in my little horizontal britta container, after reading your posts (which comes up with "emersed hairgrass" on google). Thanks a lot! and of course, thank you too Tom!
 

orion2001

Guru Class Expert
Mar 27, 2008
110
0
16
Hey Intricacy,

Good to know that my progress/updates is helping someone else. From my experience, I would recommend giving the hairgrass around a month to mature and root/establish itself very well. I don't think emersed growth works as well for hairgrass in terms of getting a very thick coverage (like with HC). With Excel and ample lighting the hairgrass was spreading much much faster and denser on submersion. However I think the initial 1 month of being established when emersed helped a lot and prevented algae issues with the hairgrass.
 

intricacy

Junior Poster
Jul 19, 2008
4
0
1
orion2001;27036 said:
Hey Intricacy,

I don't think emersed growth works as well for hairgrass in terms of getting a very thick coverage (like with HC). With Excel and ample lighting the hairgrass was spreading much much faster and denser on submersion. However I think the initial 1 month of being established when emersed helped a lot and prevented algae issues with the hairgrass.

Interesting... I guess I missed that the emersed period wasn't actually spreading your HG, I guess your photos are a little misleading considering you kept adding pots ;)

Why then, do you suggest a month, and not a couple of weeks, which I think I've seen Tom allude to several times on this thread? Wouldn't these algae issues be resolved by adding a crew of amano shrimp?

And by they way, does your new swanky tank have any inhabitants at all? I'm worried about moving my fish and inverts into a smaller tank when I try this with my big tank, that's why I'm asking about the duration. I wonder how NS2 and Chris's experiments turned out?

BTW, on another thread, I saw you worried about that grey cloud of smoke when you first submerged your tank... I've seen similar dust clouds from my onyx sand, do you think it was that?
 

intricacy

Junior Poster
Jul 19, 2008
4
0
1
noobie trying DSM today!

I've been gradually setting up a tank to conduct this DSM method myself, and after following this thread, have finally taken the plunge, after convincing my LFS to sell my three pots of HG on the cheap. I've got a mixed Onyx sand / Black flourite sand substrate, a AGA 20" L tank, and a Nova Extreme T5 HOx2 freshwater lamp. These pictures were taken on day one, and like Orion2001 before me, I spent a good part of day two trying to de-clump the grass (not pictured). Today is day three, and the grass is starting to get considerably browner now.

Due to my choice of gravel topography, I'm worried if those ponds on the side will be cultivating mosquitoes soon. I hope to grow grass all over the mound eventually.

In case you're wondering, those pebbles are there to: 1) hold the slope, 2) hold spots for taller plants, once I submerge. I think. I'm just making this up as I go along. I know fully well that sand tends to settle at a maximum 30 degree slope when submerged.

Maybe I should consider rocks or driftwood, but such luxuries are pretty damn overpriced in my neighborhood (manhattan), and I'm still contemplating lasercutting, rapid prototyping, or even old-fashion sculpting something.

Anyway, any advice would be much appreciated! I'm still curious everyone's opinion on minimum start up time for HG would be, as not only I'm impatient, but my poor fish and shrimp are telepathically telling me they're too crowded in our 6 gallon quarantine tank.

View attachment 651

View attachment 652

2692733902_8d25b86a03.jpg


2692723690_b2ac20730f_m.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.