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Dosing High Levels Of Micros? What About The Macros?

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by rs18alpha, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    I read Tom Barr's thread on his 20 gal planted tank where he was experimenting with higher levels of Mics.
    Also I checked out the thread from burr740 on his dosing levels.
    I also checked out the thread on plantedtank.net

    If I bump up the mics do I leave the macs levels alone?
    And speaking of the proper fert levels as far as ppm per dose goes, I don't know what ppm levels I should be trying to get? I'll ask this again later. I'd like to get a good starting point.

    40 gal tank:
    Currently I'm doing this.
    3xweek Macs 3xweek Mics total ppm per dose
    KNO3, NO3- 3.75ppm K- 2.36ppm CSM+B
    KH2PO4, P- 0.661 ppm K- 0.83 Fe 0.156
    K2SO4, S-0.53 K-1.30 Mn 0.044
    B 0.028
    Totals Zn 0.008
    Mo 0.0012
    NO3-11.25 ppm Cu 0.00216
    P-1.983 ppm
    K- 13.47 ppm
    S- 1.59 ppm
    If I start to dose Macs 4 times a week and the Mics everyday then I won't have a rest day.
    I do a 50% water change once a week.

    Like I asked before, I don't know what levels I need to target for a 40 gal tank??
    A lot of my plants have black on the edges of the leaves. And some black spots as well.

    Going by the charts on plantedtank.net I saw that everyone had different numbers for ppm

    I've been using CSM+B So, if I need to adjust something like zinc I can't do that with the csmb.
    I also have Ferrous Gluconate, but I don't know if I need this?
    Question: Do I need to get DTPA?

    Question: I see some people say that they are going to dose heavy Iron. How do you do that?

    If csmb won't work with the way Tom and burr740 is dosing then do I need to get each fert separately?
    If so, I don't know how much of each fert to mix in a 500 mil bottle. How much ppm of each fert would be in a 10 mil dose?

    The tank has high light 100 plus par at the substrate level, aprox ? I was told this by someone on this forum.
    According to the chart from burr740 the total K ppm per week is 65.7 (25.22) is from the RO water.
    Now, I don't use RO so should I disregard the extra 25.22 ppm?

    My csmb is close to burr micro mix. But my mn,b and zn levels are low. Since I can't add these by them selves my numbers won't match.

    Can anyone give me a good starting point for the levels I should be trying reach with each fert??
    It seems the more I read about dosing the more I get confused.
    I thought I had it but now I'm not sure??

    Thanks for your help!!
     
  2. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Dont worry about what Mn, Zn, B whatever levels Im dosing. Folks in the custom thread are working with non-chelated compounds. The micros in csmb are chelated, which means they stick around longer in an available state. Whether csmb has everything in optimum levels is another matter, but for simplicity's sake just stick to csmb at .15 ppm Fe 3x per week.

    If the plants are telling you to dose more iron (very pale or deformed new growth) you can either raise the csmb, or supplement it with another source of iron like Fe DTPA. You can use the ferrous gluconate, but it works best in soft water and low PH levels. And it doesnt play well mixed into solution, best to dose it dry if you use it. Do you know the KH of your water? Also the PH level both with and without CO2?

    A lot of this should be determined by what the plants are telling you. Anything wrong besides the black spots? Got pics of the black spots and other plants?

    Macros it looks like you're dosing about half of standard EI levels. Again what do the plants say? You may not need to adjust anything. However, standard EI calls for 7.5 ppm KNO3, 1.3 ppm K2PO4, and a couple ppms K2SO4 because you get some K from the other two also. Dose these amounts 3x per week.

    ^ I dont understand this?

    In addition to the macros and micros, plants need Ca and Mg. If you're using tap water it might have enough. Have you tested the GH, or can you google your city's water quality report to see how much Ca and Mg it has?

    It might be a good idea to get some "GH Booster" and raise the GH a point or two. This will add both Ca and Mg. But see if you can get an idea what you're working with first.
     
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  3. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    Thanks burr740 I'll start testing tomorrow. I'll take some pictures as well. This is a busy weekend, I should have the info by Sunday afternoon.
    I don't know my tap water gh. The last time I tested my tanks gh it was 11 I don't know if that's low or high?
    Question: I have equilibrium, does this raise the gh? I think it does?
    I believe my tap is a little high as far as the kh goes. And my water is a little on the hard side.
    I think you told me before that I should go with DTPA.
    Question: If I use the DTPA can I assume I won't use the Ferrous gluconate anymore?
    3 Questions: If I have to use the DTPA how much do I need to mix in a 500mil bottle?
    Or should I dry dose it?
    If so, how much at a time and what's the ppm per dose?

    Thanks again for your time on this. I really appreciate it!!
    I wish I could talk to you on the phone, or send you an email. Because there's always something I forget to ask. We could get this worked out real fast.

    Let me know if I missed anything..
     
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  4. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Yeah skip the gluconate

    DTPA can go in the same bottle as csmb, an additional .05 ppm probably be a good place to start. The calculator HERE will tell you how much to put into your dosing bottle, need to enter the size of your tank, bottle size, dose size and all that. Select the compound = Fe DTPA 11% (probably what you have, read the label it might be 10%)

    Then under "calculating for" select "dose to reach a target" and enter .05 ppm (or whatever ppm you want)

    GH of 11 is fairly high, probably doesnt need any GH booster, but it would still be nice to know how much of that is Ca and how much is Mg. It could be very heavy on one and light on the other. Both combine for the total GH
     
  5. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    I don't have the DTPA yet I have to order if from Nilocg.
    I tried to get info from my water report.
    The only thing I can find is 7.6 Ph and it says the gh is 62-208ppm or 4-13 grains per gallon. I don't know if this is what you meant?
    I sent them an email but of course I won't here from until next week. I'll try to find more info.

    I'll try to test the Kh, Ph in the tank tomorrow and the tap Gh
    Should I test the Gh and the Kh in the tank just before the CO2 comes on?

    Do you want me to test the Ph just before the CO2 comes on and just before the CO2 turns off?
     
  6. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    CO2 has no effect on GH and KH, you can test those anytime

    Put some tank water in a bowl and let it sit for 24 hours. Check the PH. This is your tank water with no CO2 in it, also known as the degassed PH

    Test the tank water when the lights first come on. Test it again 3-4 hours later.

    Post the results :)
     
  7. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    Thanks for the info. I'll be doing my water change today. So I'll test the tank ph tomorrow. My lights come on at 4:30pm then I'll test it again at 8pm
    I don't know if doing a water change shortly before checking the ph has any effect on it?
     
  8. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Yeah take the readings from the tank on a non-water change day.
     
  9. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    Sounds good. I'll have everything tested by 8:30 tomorrow.
     
  10. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    Ok, I tested my tap yesterday PH 7.5 GH 12 KH 7.5 (more like 8)
    I tested the tank water yesterday before the WC GH 9 KH 4
    The degassed tank water today was PH 7.6

    Ph just after lights on is 6.6 and 6.4 4 hours after lights on.

    One more thing. I've been having a bad time with my diffuser the past week. So my CO2 levels haven't been consistent.

    The video that Tom Barr showed using the pump and a Co2 reactor inside the 20 gal tank in his garage is what I'm going to try. What I've been using hasn't been very consistent for dissolving the CO2.

    I don't think this has been helping my situation either.
     
    #10 rs18alpha, Dec 31, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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  11. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    Here are some pictures. I started to use the ferrous gluconate about 2 weeks ago and now I'm seeing a lot more algae on the plants. Now I don't know if that's the reason? As you can see in the pictures there's algae on all of the plants now.

    12-31temp 780.JPG

    12-31temp 781.JPG

    12-31temp 782.JPG

    12-31temp 783.JPG

    12-31temp 784.JPG

    12-31temp 785.JPG
     
  12. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    Begin trimming and propagating both AR's and rotalas and fill in plant mass.
     
  13. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    CO2 looks adequate based on those PH readings. However, if you already know it's inconsistent need to fix that asap. Having the same steady levels from one day to the next is just as important as how much.

    I'd ditch the gluconate. Your PH and KH is too high for it to do you much good.

    Algae is there because the plants arent happy. Keep working on things and be patient. As the plants start to do better the algae will begin to go away. In the meantime remember to keep everything clean. 2x week water changes would help for a month or two
     
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  14. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    You can compensate a lot for uneven CO2 levels, day to day, by dosing Excel at twice what the bottle instructions say. I'm not sure why it works, but I have found that it does work for me.
     
  15. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    Thanks for the help. Now as far as the Mics go. I dose the mics on Sun, Tues, Thur Once I get the CO2 fixed should I dose mics every day? I've always wondered if I'm putting enough mics in the tank? This is going back to the thread that Tom Barr was talking about experimenting with mics seven day a week.
    I just wanted to know if there's no mics in the tank from Thur to Sun does that make a difference?
     
  16. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    Only way to find out is to try it. Each tank is unique, so observing plants is key. They will tell you if the it's enough or not.

    And by the way, with 100 PAR, I would also try more macros. You are driving the plants pretty hard, and only dosing about 1/2 EI.

    I know in my tank, too little macros causes more problems than too many. Might be worth it to up them and see what happens. Again, watch the plants and see if they improve. Finding balance takes some experimenting, and trial and error is part of the learning curve.

    Good luck with everything, and looking forward to seeing how things go.
     
  17. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    Hey burr740, I've tried to use the rotalabutterfly site but it wont work. Can you tell me how much 11% DTPA to add in a 500 mil bottle?
    Also, how many mils to dose to reach 0.5ppm for a 40 gal tank?
     
  18. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Thats the thing, we have to know how many ml you plan on dosing before knowing how much fert to add. You decide that, not the calculator.

    There's a field to enter dosing amount, its right under container size. You have to fill that in for the calc to work.
     
  19. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

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    I understand that, but I can't get on the website. I wanted to start off with dosing 5mil Of course if I don't know how much to mix in the bottle then I don't know what to do?
     
  20. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Try this link, seems to be working fine on my end

    http://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php
     
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