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DIY CO2 and Animals

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by csmith, Jan 27, 2010.

  1. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Is DIY CO2 a bad idea on a 10 gallon with shrimp? I ask because obviously you can't control the input, and when the lights are off at night you're overloading the system. I'm curious as to how bad this can end up. My plants are begging for CO2, but I really like my shrimp. I presume the answer to be yes, it is bad..but all of my other presumptions have been wrong thus far. :eek:

    I've tried searching this, but the search engine won't recognize DIY or CO2.
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Not A Big Concern

    Hi,

    Yes, it is possible to harm or kill critters with diy CO2. :( I have not heard it being that big of a problem, :) just use a little less yeast, pay attention to your critters and have a small air pump on hand, you can put it on a timer.

    Unless you have ferns, mosses and/or hornworts, Excel is an excellent alternative.;)

    On the other hand, talk to Left C and he can explain how to slit CO2 from your 55-gallon tank. :D

    Biollante
     
  3. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    Yes, DIY CO2 can kill, I am quite sure I had an oto die because of it
    (BPS was too high, not by duration though). So any CO2 system can kill.

    When I used DIY CO2, I disconnected the hose at night and reconnected it
    before light on. But I couldn't keep up with this schedule, my wake-up time
    didn't match light-on time. So I switched to pressurised system with solenoid
    eventually.
     
    #3 nipat, Jan 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2010
  4. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    Just run an airstone or something similar when the lights are off. This should help to avoid a high CO2 concentration at night and have it available for the plants when the lights are on. You can even use a staggered "air period". Turn the airstone on a hour or two before the lights go off and have it go off an hour or two before the lights come on. This will give you more CO2 and O2 when you need it.
     
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    What Left C Says

    Hi,

    I have kept three of my tanks continuously for over six years, have kept diy CO2 off and on since the 70’s (19, not 18) and more or less continuously from ’86 or ‘87 and continue to keep tanks, including a couple of 10-gallon tanks, diy CO2. :gw

    I have low critter mortality rates and none I could attribute to CO2. :)

    I am not sure of Nipat’s methodology in eliminating all other possible causes of death to his poor unfortunate Otto. Ottos are notoriously sensitive to water conditions. Nor as I said in my earlier post do I deny the possibility that do-it-yourself carbon dioxide could cause deaths to your critters. :)

    Personally, I think our critters are at far greater risk from CO2 related death with the use of pressurized systems. :rolleyes:

    In a heavily planted tank, at night I suppose there is a possibility, if it concerns you, a small air pump and air stone on a timer will take care of that. If your tank is so lightly planted that you fear the CO2 in the daytime, I would not use any.

    Biollante
     
  6. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    Well, it's embarrassing to admit. But it's true.

    That (male) otto had been very fine before I connected another bottle of CO2 to test BPS rate. 3 hours later it's dead.
    At that time I still was very new to CO2 that breathing at the surface was the only symptom I knew of about CO2 toxicity.
    And the otto just stayed in the bush of tenellus, out of my distant observation, until it died.

    I don't think pressurized systems are safer. So no disagreement here.
     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Insightful Sort!

    Hi Nipat,

    Not trying to create an argument, you are one of the most insightful people I have met online, but as "they" do say however, "correlation is not causation."

    It happens a lot.

    Biollante
     
  8. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Biollante/Left C/nipat,

    This DIY CO2 would be on the 10 gallon you've been answering questions for me on the dosing being too rich or not(pictures in post 3 here). Excel is being used currently, but I was thinking the CO2 gas would be better. I'm not too keen on totally relying on Excel when the DIY CO2 is so much cheaper. My main concern was at night, I have no doubt my plants would suck it up throughout the daytime. Running an overnight airstone seems to be the consensus fix for my fears.
    I wouldn't have this problem if my 10 gallon wasn't in my bedroom. The humming from the filter (Penguin Bio-Wheel 100..which produces quite a few O2 bubbles to be honest) is so loud at night that I have it turn off when the lights go off on the timer. I'm starting to look for a quiter filter as I'd personally rather have it on 24/7 instead of off and on, and I'm sure turning it off and on like I am causes motor problems long-term.
     
    #8 csmith, Jan 28, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2010
  9. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    It's not good to turn a filter off for extended periods. The aerobic bacteria need O2 24/7 or they die.

    BioWheel's are noisy. Try the Eheim Liberty series. I'd get the 200 for your 10g. You can throttle it back with its valve to a trickle and still have a lot of media in it. The 100 and 150 models will work on a 10g, but the 200's have more media (sponge) room.

    Liberty 200 with large sponges
    [​IMG]

    large sponge
    [​IMG]

    The large sponges are washable over and over. Good product for planted aquaria!


    Links

    http://eheim.com/base/eheim/inhalte/index8dac.html?key=liniendetail_27852_ehen
    http://eheim.com/base/eheim/inhalte/index28c4.html?key=liniendetail_27413_ehen
    http://www.bigalsonline.com/edealinv/servlet/ExecMacro?omni_scAdd=scAdd&nurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&eurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&rurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&ctl_nbr=3684&queryType=0&path=&offset=&hits=&sortby=&query=liberty&submit.x=16&submit.y=10
     
  10. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    What Left C Said!

    Hi,

    There are plenty of quiet little filters and pumps for a 10-gallon tank. :)

    A little pump and sponge filter ought to be sufficient. Just aim some of the out flow up and agitate the surface. :gw

    It really does not take much.:cool:

    Biollante
     
  11. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Many of the reviews bill the Liberty as not just quieter than Aqua Clears and Penguins..but silent. I'm definately going to take a further look here. As the sponge pre-filter goes, I never realized this was something to do. I bet all of those baby shrimp I see after they hatch would live a better life not being sucked into my filter.:rolleyes: Thanks again for the help. :)
     
  12. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    I have both the 100 and 200 Liberty filters. Both are on separate 10g aquariums. I've have had 0 problems with them and I've had them 7 years. They still have the stock impellers.

    The Liberty filters come stock with thin sponge(s) and 3D carbon insert(s). According to Eheim, one or two large sponges come with the filters which is new to me. The large sponge inserts just came out a little over a year ago.

    If you order media for them, get a 12 pack of 3D carbon inserts and 1 or 2 large sponge inserts. You will be good to go for a long time. You may or may not need a spare 2 pack of thin sponge inserts.
    http://www.bigalsonline.com/edealinv/servlet/ExecMacro?omni_scAdd=scAdd&nurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&eurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&rurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&ctl_nbr=3684&queryType=0&path=&offset=&hits=&sortby=&query=liberty&submit.x=16&submit.y=10

    Another nice feature they have other than an adjustable flow is that they can prime themselves which is handy at times. AquaClears can't do this.

    If you decide to go with an AquaClear, get a 50 or 70 (200 or 300 gph) and I'll tell you how to grind away an intake stop so that you can lower the flow. Get a box of sponges. A 100mL Purigen bag is optional.
    http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCatalog/ctl3684/cp18423/si3568923/cl1/seachem_purigen__100ml?&query=purigen&queryType=0&hits=12&offset=0
     
  13. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Left C,

    Would you happen to know which Eheim sponge pre-filter fits the Liberty? I'm seeing them for the canister filters, but don't know which to get. I ended up picking up the 150 (which was somehow cheaper than the 100). The 200 just came across as a little too long.
     
  14. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    The 150 should be fine. I like the 200 because of the extra media room and twin returns. Their flow adjustment works really well. If you don't have one already, pick up a flexible wire brush to clean out the inside of the intake and output tubes.

    I haven't used that particular prefilter. I use a replacement sponge prefilter for a Marineland 660R powerhead that I cut in half and rinse out in aquarium water when it is dirty.

    http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/214002/product.web
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F976PW/?tag=barrreport-21

    [​IMG]
     
  15. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Great Recommendation!

    Left C,
    I hooked up my Liberty 150 this morning. Wow, is that thing quiet. It's quieter while breaking in than my last was after months of use. Thanks for the recommendation.

    Everyone,
    I'm in the process of setting up my DIY Co2 and I came across a thread on APC. This guy is showing how to build it, and adds a bubble counter/"seperator". It's apparently not just to count bubbles, but to "keep the Yeast Muck from being released into your tank". Is this a real concern? I'm under the impression the tubing doesn't actually go into the yeast/sugar/water, but sits above it, and if that's the case I don't see how any of the water ends up in your tank. Am I mistaken, or is this article off?
     
  16. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    I'm glad that you like the Eheim Liberty. It is a great HOB filter that few people use. The AquaClears are popular too, but since Eheim made the large sponge for their Liberties the AC's have no advantage in this aspect.


    I'm not familiar with the particular APC thread that you mentioned. Anyway, there are two tubes going into the top. The intake goes into the water in the BC/separator. The output is shorter and doesn't go in the water.
     
  17. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Confused

    Now I'm confused..again. You guys have to stop doing that to me.

    Alright, here is where I found out how to make a DIY Co2 reactor. It's simple.
    http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/DIY-Yeast-CO2/7/

    APC Thread
    http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/diy-aquarium-projects/14453-diy-co2-guide-pictures-recipes.html

    I guess, when it comes down to it, the question is if I go by the design in the first link, do I need to worry about the issues this guy is trying to prevent in the second link? Is the second bottle (with whatever title you want to give it) necessary/useful? This is going on a 10 gallon tank, so I'm not concerned with a bubble counter or anything of that sort.
     
    #17 csmith, Feb 7, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2010
  18. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    More Than One Way To Skin The proverbial Cat!

    Hi,

    I am not sure I understand the question or how we confused you.

    Most folks like a ‘bubble counter’, keeps a certain amount of yeastie beastie parts and wastes from fouling diffusers and entering the tank.

    If the message has not yet arrived, as with skinning the proverbial cat, there is more than one way to accomplish most tasks. Most of us are on more than one site and know people who absolutely disagree with our very existence. If you have to have absolute agreement on everything, you are not going to accomplish much.

    Biollante
     
  19. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Biollante,
    I apologize if what I said came across in some way I did not mean. My confusion was from Left C's last 3 sentences in his post. At the time I didn't understand what he meant (with the multiple tubes), nor how exactly the second bottle played any role of importance. My first handful of websites showing DIY Co2 showed one bottle, one hose, done. Then I came across more places that showed the secondary bottle in some fashion to do this or that. My first assumption was the single bottle configuration was an "older" method, and the two bottle design was an upgrade to, perhaps, correct issues on the former's flaws. This is why I asked the question of if yeast being sucked into the tank was a real concern. I still don't quite understand how that can happen with the hose inches above the water, unless you do something like put the hose directly into a water pump and it has enough power to cave the plastic bottle (saw that one on the Krib). My second post on the subject was just to clarify my question.
    I'm not sure if the last sentence was directed at me or a generalized statement, but I assure you I wasn't looking for anyone to agree with me on anything. Well, I guess we can agree I don't know what I'm doing. I do understand there's more than one way to do these things, I was only looking for the reasoning behind it.
     
  20. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    I can't hardy reach up from the floor to hit the enter key because I am laughing so hard.
     
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