Dishonest Aqua Medic?

[Tom Barr]

Tom, I guess I must be one of those folks that fall for the marketting and deserve what I get.

I know what you mean and know you didn't mean it as something to take personally.

People that fall for phoney diet pills, fortune tellers etc, and intelligent people (like me) who buy specialised aquarium products aren't the same thing!

So far it would seem that the bulk of contributors to this thread agree with me.

Obviously doesn't matter what we're talking about, be it aquarium supplies, cars, kitchen appliances etc etc.

Sometimes I think the manufacturer can get away with it, other times they can't.

It seems in this case AM really just get away with it because all I can really do is take the product back, not worth trying to sue them over their false claims. And, to be honest, I'd rather just figure out how to make the best of it anyway, now that I have it hooked up. It was only a $100 odd bucks, if it were $1000's it would be a different story, much more worth going after.

Part of the problem here is the old usual thing that we on this forum are so used to now, claims about this and that with no testing or supporting information to back up the claims.

More the principle of it for me now, rather than the actual cost.

If my wfie and I buy something and it doesn't do what we expect it to do, based on the manufacturers claims, we 'vote' by taking it back. Over the last 12 months or so, my wife and I have taken lots of things back to where we bought them from for a refund. Lots of things just don't do what they say they can do and often don't make it past the 12 month warranty!

Lot of crap out there.

Manfacturers should be able to justify their claims. There should be something to protect the people so we are the ones that have to fork out the $10,000 to sue the companies. If a product doesn't work, we lodge a complaint, it should get investigated by somebody, arses should be kicked. ;-)

Again, don't care so much about the $100 AM unit, just the principle of it....

I'm no mug. I expected the claims from AM to be *slightly* hyped, but not grossly hyped. That's not fair.

Scott.

Well, you can talk to me in person in about 1.5 weeks
See Leo, it'll be a demo Friday after the ANFAG meet in Sydney.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[scottward]

Hi Tom,

Yeah, cool, it would be nice to meet you and have a chat. You have done so much for this hobby!

If I offer you enough beer you might come over and fix my tank for me....

If I don't see you, I hope you have a nice flight over and enjoy your time over here. It's just starting to warm up nicely over here at the moment, little bit of rain, but generally blue skies!!

Scott.

 

[Philosophos]

Well Tom, since you've given me the go-ahead, I guess I'd better say something.

Saying that anything functions for up to X size of aquarium is essentially dishonest. It makes the assertion that it will function for any aquarium, since the nature of the average aquarium is not a clearly known fact. Essentially they are making statements about something that can not be substantiated one way or the other.

Now, if one were to say, "capable of maintaining X gal, of DI H2O at Y level of PPM CO2 with Z level of filtration" then offer a resource for further information on the method, or an ISO standardization, suddenly it wouldn't be dishonest. There would be an active attempt to base performance on something empirical.

If people are just getting what they deserve for buying scam products, then hypothetically what ever I can take through dishonesty from some one is now valid. Does this excuse multicorps that take what they can from developing nations, and in return give them low wages and poor living conditions? I would not say this is any sort of way an equal or altruistic way to treat people.

It may be that companies can't make it without doing these things. But how much human time and effort is simply wasted on a glorified mating display slapped on to an appliance that makes a pleasant whirring noise? How much time is lost dealing with the shortcomings of willfully misrepresented products? How is the wasted time and effort of entire marketing departments engaged in deception any different from financialy coercing an underclass to make luxury goods and status symbols for those who can afford them, yet actually contribute less effort to the betterment of humanity? Both waste the cumulative time and effort we could spend doing something that does not involve wasting our time deceiving and manipulating each other for personal gain.

So we can't sell our products because of the conditions we're in, without ethically compromising our selves. Why aren't we changing those conditions? Personally, I don't think humans care to be ethical when it's easier not to be. We've proven it repeatedly as one empire rises after another, supported on the backs of its working class, only to be torn apart by it when the empire weakens. Until then, we'll all sit around gorging our selves in a bystander effect; nobody else is uncomfortable, someone will do something, but it sure isn't me. It might hurt to do the right thing.

Anyhow, that's just my two bits

Thanks for letting me rant, Tom.

-Philosophos

*edit* by the way, nice interview on the podcast; I got 20 minutes in and it froze, so I've downloaded the rest for later.

 

[Brian20]

Brian20 - not talking about the same thing here - not talking about nice packaging etc.

Talking about being honest about what the product can *do*.

There are lots of examples of products out there that are BOTH well marketted and HONEST in their claims. The companies that make good, honest products and know how to market them do very well for themselves.

Scott.

Yeah but is similar, the features, the nice packaging, the false or overrated features. The companies do that for sell their products.

Ex.

If the reactor can reach 15 ppm, maybe less it would be acceptable. If they say that it only for **example** reach 12 ppm in 500G tank maybe a lot of people not buy the product from them, instead go to other false feature product and buy the other. People in forums are very different and normally very smart in aquarium knowledge, the other people in this hobbie dont know a lot so they guides by the product description. For I hear this reactor not meets 100% the requieriments for the job but make it. Another aquarium products dont do nothing that they says but still sells in a base of false features.

Is like a product rule, say all the good of it and hiperbolize a little, not say the wrong part.

Companies wants to sell and many of then not are aquarist only make a product for the purpose and if the products meets their expectations and is costeable they accept it an produce it. Most people in forums knows the pros and cons of product and if it not work simple not buy it, but a lot of aquarist that not are in forums bough that items.

We can teach ourselves and buy only the best and the best for our aquarium, the people that not are aware of this still will continue to buy items by it features. So this will going to happen always, the companies will not stop to hiperbolize it products.

Brian

 

[scottward]

Philosophos/Brian20,

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

Philosophos, I like what you have to say. I think I understand all the points that you are making and I think they I agree with you. I say 'I think' only because I'm a little bit tired today and can't think very clearly. ;-)

If they say that it only for **example** reach 12 ppm in 500G tank maybe a lot of people not buy the product from them, instead go to other false feature product and buy the other.

I would respect their honesty if they did this! Aqua Medic need to 'keep their finger on the pulse', look at what the market is screaming out for, and make a product that *does* suit! This is one of the keys to business success - what do the customers really want? Market something that honestly and genuinely fullfills the needs of the customers and you'll no doubt do very well.

And remember, word of mouth is a big helper. If somebody markets a product that is exactly what people are after, word of mouth will sell many more units!

AM should know that we advanced aquarists *WANT* 30ppm in our tanks. They should therefore put out a product that can get to 30ppm in the tank size they claim. Do this, genuinely, and they won't have any trouble selling their products.

I don't know if I'd buy anything ever again from them now, I don't trust them!

And they haven't bothered to write back to me either - another 'good business' thing; customer service!!!

Scott.

 

[scottward]

Quoting myself for a minute...

Do this, genuinely, and they won't have any trouble selling their products.

I guess they've done this dishonestly (or maybe 'white lies'?), and still haven't had any trouble selling their products.

 

[jonny_ftm]

I answered you on the other topic (pump noise). Think at what I suggested and with time, you'll see that the AM1000 is really not a bad product, if you recognise its limitations for a big setup like you're asking from it.

Quiet no one here uses in-tank diffusers like those Dennerle Flipper..., yet some of them are stated for up to 600 gallons

Again, in this forum, thanks to Tom, we put a big focus on CO2, like no others do. So, don't be shocked to see any CO2 way reaching its limits with Tom That's why, no CO2 solution will fit everyones needs. Even Tom didn't find the ultimate solution...

By the way, I'm soon trying this one:


And will compare it to my AM1000, but on a 60 gal. You'll have to wait a few weeks though for me to try it and be able to toss a conclusion

 

[shoggoth43]

Do let us know how this works out. I'm still trying to figure out what to do on my 120-180 new tank. I'm still trying to figure out where I'm going with this so I'll have a pile of ideas and questions in the next few months. Knowing that I'll still be here in a couple months vs. moving across the country helps get projects like this moving again.

-
S

By the way, I'm soon trying this one:


And will compare it to my AM1000, but on a 60 gal. You'll have to wait a few weeks though for me to try it and be able to toss a conclusion

 

[Brian20]

Philosophos/Brian20,

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

Philosophos, I like what you have to say. I think I understand all the points that you are making and I think they I agree with you. I say 'I think' only because I'm a little bit tired today and can't think very clearly. ;-)



I would respect their honesty if they did this! Aqua Medic need to 'keep their finger on the pulse', look at what the market is screaming out for, and make a product that *does* suit! This is one of the keys to business success - what do the customers really want? Market something that honestly and genuinely fullfills the needs of the customers and you'll no doubt do very well.

And remember, word of mouth is a big helper. If somebody markets a product that is exactly what people are after, word of mouth will sell many more units!

AM should know that we advanced aquarists *WANT* 30ppm in our tanks. They should therefore put out a product that can get to 30ppm in the tank size they claim. Do this, genuinely, and they won't have any trouble selling their products.

I don't know if I'd buy anything ever again from them now, I don't trust them!

And they haven't bothered to write back to me either - another 'good business' thing; customer service!!!

Scott.

Yeah that true. If the product are honestly and make all that they say to 100% it will be great. I use a diffusor in my tank (only 29G) and for me works great, plants pearling and grows fast, I dont know the concentration (I need and I want the test for that), I dont think that the company that make the diffusor check that the 30ppm in water are meet but the know that maybe 90% of people that bought this product like it. AM 1000 reactor have good reviews so the "Hiperbolized" features brough more interest and selling than a problem. How many people have a 500G tank? Yeah im with you in that a product need to be honest, we dont want to buy products that not make the job. Really that would be nice the participation in this conversation of a representant of AM. Maybe we miss something or maybe there are a way to make it work better.

Brian

 

[scottward]

Thanks again for feedback guys, appreciate it.

Nothing at all from Aqua Medic, and I don't expect I will ever receive a reply.

In the unlikely event that I do, I will share what they have to say.

Anyway, I'll keep tinkering...

It would be fun to take all the fish out and hook 10 CO2 bottles up to my tank and just pump the living sh*t out of it with CO2!!!! ;-)

 

[nipat]

10-15 BPS

I don't think a normal size reactor can handle that.

 

[scottward]

Yep. I've been had by Aqua Medic. I realised that there claim of being able to support a 500 gallon tank with an AM1000 would be a bit hyped, but thought I would be fine with a 100g!!

Anyway, I'll just push on with what I've got to work with...