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Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

Discussion in 'Advanced Strategies and Fertilization' started by Vladimir Zhurov, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. Vladimir Zhurov

    Vladimir Zhurov Lifetime Members
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    Tom has mentioned earlier that it would be good to develop a new dosing calculator for "The Barr Report".

    I have contacted him and he mentioned that there is a number of people that are interested in development of such a calculator and suggested that we can work together and coordinate our efforts.

    I would like to ask all willing participants to join in.

    So far I have put together a small calculator to demonstrate a concept that I personally would like to see in a new calculator. Namely it can be structured in a way of actual human-readable forms/statements like "I want to increase X by Y ppm and have salt Z", "Tank water has pH of X and KH of Y so CO2 concentration is ... ppm", and so on.

    I have put it currently online at:
    http://devbiol.zoo.uwo.ca/barrreport/barrreport_calc.html

    In both forms only nitrate part is fully functional.

    All code is available at:
    http://devbiol.zoo.uwo.ca/barrreport/barrreport_calc.zip

    I am not a programmer so the JavaScript that I have put together so far is most likely extremely ugly.

    I can also provide FTP access to web server so people can upload their versions, but I am sure there must be someone here who is more familiar with software development and can coordinate the whole thing much better.

    Regards.

    Vladimir.
     
  2. derekparr

    derekparr Junior Poster

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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    heh, thats pretty nifty.
    I like how it gives you the "full" answer in plain english.

    makes alot more since to me than other calculators I've seen.
     
  3. Dolfan

    Dolfan Lifetime Members
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Very nice tool for "us" chemically challenged folks. Thanks!
     
  4. Spar

    Spar Guru Class Expert

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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    That will rock once complete!

    I am about to go try out the "fish poo" formula :)
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Jason has offered to help and add some input here:
    All are welcomed to think outside the box with this utility and make it more useful to the membership here.

    I'm considering something that shows how much ppm are left after dosing a week's worth of nutrient, with a given water change%.
    Then a prgram that shows the dilutions as say 25% of the NO3 are used up, 50% or 75 or 100% etc.

    See the EI article's gragh example with 10ppf NO3 added.

    Also, basing the uptake on substrate concentrations(see uptake graph based on the Droop model).

    These are modeling prgrams and can be done to predict the outcomes in terms of nutirents or growth rates/uptake rates.

    This way you can plan and predict what these levels might be and know how much is being used up or not.

    This is thinking way ahead of the calculators that are now being used.

    Chuck Gadd has offered his for the site also.

    I'd also like to add an estimated ppm number for ....if you added say 10ppm NO3....... you'd need x amount of Fe to provide non limiting conditions.

    Basically an elemental ratio plug and chugger.

    So what would be the N:p ratio for 10 ppm NO3: 1ppm PO4 in terms of N:p.........

    That type of ratio to compound, ion convertor.

    So you could say I use 10:1:20 and trace at 0.2
    GH would be 4:1

    CO2 would be C at 200, N 10, P 1, K+ 20, Fe as proxy for traces at 0.2


    The other issue would be adding a water change % variable and a frequency of water change variable to predict max ranges and build up.

    This would be far more powerful that the cals out now.

    We would split the cal into 3 mainsections:

    Dosing nutrients
    Water change/frequencies
    Nutrient ranges with both of the above functions.

    We can also add a CO2 function into this= add pH and KH => CO2ppm, no table format.

    If this could produce a graph with the input sets, that would simply awesome.

    A DOS prgram can write this type of stuff, we used it in ecological modeling.
    It was not that hard for them to do this as I recall, but I'm no programmer.

    Main thing here is to start simple with a nice looking dosing calculator,
    We can add and build to it here and there as folks have time.

    I want some of the same things the other calculators preform but these calculators have so much more potential!!!!

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Graphing fuction over time based on a dosing rate would way cool and relatively easy to do.

    regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Fish poo can be worked in also.

    With the graghing and % used, you can estimate the the relative contribution for the fish.

    You can do this now by removing the fish and then adding them back again and testing.

    But you can also get a rough idea based of the % estimated that you use using the graphs.

    We need to consider fish food and the analysis of the nutrient content(we'll assume 10 % lost to the fish, 90% to the plants).

    There are many functions the calculator is capable of.

    But keep it simple and build it.
    I'm just brain storming right now and wanting to get a basic item working.

    When folks think about these other possible functions, often they go off and make them so I like to get them out there and see if they are of use or can be improved upon or honed even better.




    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help


    Yes, I think Jason might be but Chuck Gadd also may help and there are other victims.

    I like the version you have that expresses it in verbal form.

    Good work.

    Tom Barr
     
  9. freemann

    freemann Junior Poster

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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Tom as I have suggested to you in priv message you should make a flow chart of your ideas, needs in a flowcharting program (if you can't find one I can get you mind manager (the best) or another) and create a chart there of the program structure with links to urls, notes, docs, xls, whatever of relevant material for each object in it you can publish this in an expanding tree web page or a jpg file. This way people can have a clear look of your idea, structure of calc and program according.
     
  10. fosteder

    fosteder Guru Class Expert

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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    To add to the brainstorming:

    I think it would be cool if these claculators could take in to account the existing water parameters (by existing, I mean either what is in your tank or what is coming out of your tap depending on how you want to look at it). Most calculators are assuming that there is nothing in the water or that you are wanting to raise it x ppm from what it was. This would kind of fit in with Tom's idea of a ratio plug and chugger. You could input what is in the water, tell it what kind of ratios you want and what level and it could tell you what you need to dose.

    Just an idea...don't know if it would work or be useful...but there you go.

    I also like how yours displayed in plain english! Very nice! :D
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Yes, we develope software for the State of CA here and building a data dictionary for our monitoring program. We use similar flow charts for this design.

    I have plenty of Flow chart flow diagrams like those availaable on Microsoft PP and MS Word. I can give the needs and ther data dictionary can be built around this.

    Yes, existing tap water would be great!

    I'll make a listing of different parameters and functions we might add.
    From there we can build the dictionary and then use the prgram to plug and chug most any need the aquarist might have with fertilizing.

    This more formal process in software application has not really been done but
    I think would go a long way.

    I think it is very powerful and offers us a lot of conveniences that have yet to be done yet is not that tough to make once we decide what the parameter inputs are.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. Vladimir Zhurov

    Vladimir Zhurov Lifetime Members
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    I have updated the calculator page.

    Nitrate, phosphate, potassium and CO2 parts are ready for testing.

    If an answer for number of spoons is "infinity", than I do not know how heavy is one tsp of a particular fertilizer. Please share this information with me.

    Some fertilizers might be hydrated and I do not have information for all of them. Please share this information with me also.

    There might be errors, typos and such, so please do not use it for actual dose calculation yet.

    Regards.

    Vladimir.
     
  13. JHipkin

    JHipkin Junior Poster

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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    I am very new to fertilizer dosing etc. so this may be off base but, wouldn't the following parameters affect the dosage?

    How heavily planted is the tank?
    How high is the fish load (inches or number?)?
    How much light (wpg)?

    In addition, for those of us who haven't gotten to dosing individual chemicals, what would the recommended dosage be for commonly available ferts like SeaChem Flourish?

    And finally, how often should the tank be treated? I expect this will be influenced by water change quantity / frequency and the parameters mentioned above.

    Thanks all. I lean more every time I tune in.
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Yes, you are correct, all those play a role, but........they also can be addressed also!

    See maximum uptake rates in the EI article to get an idea.
    But the issues you raise will be put into the program.

    Regards,.
    Tom Barr
     
  15. wob

    wob Junior Poster

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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Looks cool so far. :)

    One suggestion, for a new user to EI, I think it would be cool if there was a 'quick calculator' that you simply put in the amount of water in your tank,
    tap water properties (optional) and print out a complete weekly dosage schedule for each nutrient (assuming 50% WC weekly) to get a user started and used to dosing by EI.

    I will definitely be a user to this tool!
    Good job!

    Robert
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Sounds good to me Robert.

    I like the idea of a simple cal for most folks and then a modeling cal for the nerds.........

    That would rather easy to set up.
    Anyone that wants to do that, go for it, we'll place your name up and it'll get a huge amount of usage as well as be free for any one.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. JHipkin

    JHipkin Junior Poster

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    Re: Development of a new dosing calculator, come help

    Count me in as well. I have spent some considerable time trying to sort through all the threads full of chemistry about what to put in my 20 gallon planed tank.

    I'm looking forward to it.
     
  18. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Did this ever get finished and would it be available for mac users? What a great addition to an already wonderful place for lost souls to find their way. My primary concern isn't only what to dose, but what I am dosing as well.
     
    #18 Tug, Jan 5, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2010
  19. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Fertilator is the best calculator I ever seen, give it a try
     
  20. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Thanks jonny,
    I bounce around between Fertilator and Chuck Gad's calculator. What I am really looking for is the little math primer from Dan, (Philosophos). Then I can do the math on my own calculator. It's getting old but still works if I shake it every now and then, and feed it twice a day.
     
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