Depicting Barr's system

fablau

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Tom Barr said:
So post no CMS dosing, I had some minor algae pop up in the 120, a little BGA, a bit more glass algae, soft greens............nothing major.
This is likely more due to the general reduction in growth perhaps....than adding or deleting CMS. Some slight changes etc can cause this increase.


In the 70 Buce tank, I got more glass GSA but a softer type.


I wiped this off and things should be fine hereafter.


180 gallon got a little GDA, tossed in 4 Bristle nose plecos. They will make quick work of it.


The Red Ludwigia has recovered well after I resumed dosing, I trimmed it today and this post trim (a few minutes afterwards).





Frankly claiming it is Micro Tox for curled leaves, algae issues or a more specific trace metal is unfounded.


This was a simple try and it and see and little else is required to show falsification of this claim.

Tom, how long did your plant take to get better when you resumed CSM dosing? Key question...
 

Tom Barr

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4 days post dosing of CMS+B. Dosing about .1ppm daily as CMS and then another 0.1 ppm as Fe DTPA and gluconate daily.


I've dosed 2-3x this amount, but it does not offer me any benefits I can see overall, but it does not harm the plants either. Many have done this overdosing of ferts and including traces.......in the past but each new cohort that missed those lessons seems to think they have found their cure all. I understand/get that, folks have to prove this to themselves(not to me), but do not fall for the same logical fallacies. Still, I know I do not need to dose more than this to get good results, so there's no good reason I can see to add/lard on more than what I'm dosing.


Now if someone said plant species X and Y grow better with MORE trace/Fe, I'm all ears, because that actually might make some sense and jives with what folks observe.
 

bsantucci

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fablau said:
Your water is very soft, toxicity can occur much more easily. Also, how's your plant mass? Your measured values are anyway astonishing high with such frequent and big water changes...

My tank was heavily planted at that time. You could not see substrate or glass from to back. I found it very interesting also. My water company doesn't report much in the way of our water, just contaminents mostly, so I've wondered if a lot if in my water already.
 

fablau

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Tom Barr said:
4 days post dosing of CMS+B. Dosing about .1ppm daily as CMS and then another 0.1 ppm as Fe DTPA and gluconate daily.

I've dosed 2-3x this amount, but it does not offer me any benefits I can see overall, but it does not harm the plants either. Many have done this overdosing of ferts and including traces.......in the past but each new cohort that missed those lessons seems to think they have found their cure all. I understand/get that, folks have to prove this to themselves(not to me), but do not fall for the same logical fallacies. Still, I know I do not need to dose more than this to get good results, so there's no good reason I can see to add/lard on more than what I'm dosing.


Now if someone said plant species X and Y grow better with MORE trace/Fe, I'm all ears, because that actually might make some sense and jives with what folks observe.

Thank you Tom for your reply and details, that helps a lot! I think I'll try to increase CSM dosing and see what happens. I might have really bottomed out with traces.
 

fablau

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bsantucci said:
My tank was heavily planted at that time. You could not see substrate or glass from to back. I found it very interesting also. My water company doesn't report much in the way of our water, just contaminents mostly, so I've wondered if a lot if in my water already.

Yeah, the only explanation could be you have already some stuff in your tap water. Can you check your tap water values yourself?
 

bsantucci

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fablau said:
Yeah, the only explanation could be you have already some stuff in your tap water. Can you check your tap water values yourself?

The guy who tested my tank water on TPT was supposed to test my tap (I gave him a sample), but he never did and that thread went dead. I didn't want to bug him since he's doing it for free.


I've just reduced ALL of my dosing to a smaller tank size and it's been working currently. I just started my MUCH lower Miller's dosing. I am going to try that with Fe DPTA for 2 weeks to test. If things don't improve dramatically I'll switch to the Flourish I got.


The big thing I noticed so far though is my Rotala Colorata is actually growing. It literally just sat there in my tank. Sometimes it would grow a tad, then just stop. Did this for months now. I was determined to make it grow this time and kept it rather than tossing it.
 

Pikez

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bsantucci said:
The big thing I noticed so far though is my Rotala Colorata is actually growing. It literally just sat there in my tank. Sometimes it would grow a tad, then just stop. Did this for months now. I was determined to make it grow this time and kept it rather than tossing it.

I've had this issue with Rotala Colorata before. It would grow vigorously and then suddenly stop. Something was causing that. I can't say with 100% confidence but that 'something' may be excess traces. Rotala belongs to a family of plants that appear susceptible to this. When I did my trace detox, Rotala macrandra was the first to respond with much bigger leaves. This was short-lived because the rest of the tank did not do well (to put it mildly) with the detox.


Staying permanently on trace detox would have been a disaster for my tank. I'm cautiously going back to CSM+B.


But I'm willing to stick my neck out and say that Rotalas do better in lower trace environments. By extension, so should Ammannia/Nasaea, Cuphea, and Didiplis. I have not kept Cuphea and Didiplis in low-trace environments but they are guilty by association. :D
 

bsantucci

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Pikez said:
I've had this issue with Rotala Colorata before. It would grow vigorously and then suddenly stop. Something was causing that. I can't say with 100% confidence but that 'something' may be excess traces. Rotala belongs to a family of plants that appear susceptible to this. When I did my trace detox, Rotala macrandra was the first to respond with much bigger leaves. This was short-lived because the rest of the tank did not do well (to put it mildly) with the detox.


Staying permanently on trace detox would have been a disaster for my tank. I'm cautiously going back to CSM+B.


But I'm willing to stick my neck out and say that Rotalas do better in lower trace environments. By extension, so should Ammannia/Nasaea, Cuphea, and Didiplis. I have not kept Cuphea and Didiplis in low-trace environments but they are guilty by association. :D

Makes sense. I struggled with Nasaea and Didiplis also. Maybe I'll revisit those once this gets squared away. I'm hopeful my Miller's testing will be positive and if not, Flourish should work just fine to keep the toxicity away and still provide what is needed.
 

fablau

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Pikez said:
I've had this issue with Rotala Colorata before. It would grow vigorously and then suddenly stop. Something was causing that. I can't say with 100% confidence but that 'something' may be excess traces. Rotala belongs to a family of plants that appear susceptible to this. When I did my trace detox, Rotala macrandra was the first to respond with much bigger leaves. This was short-lived because the rest of the tank did not do well (to put it mildly) with the detox.


Staying permanently on trace detox would have been a disaster for my tank. I'm cautiously going back to CSM+B.


But I'm willing to stick my neck out and say that Rotalas do better in lower trace environments. By extension, so should Ammannia/Nasaea, Cuphea, and Didiplis. I have not kept Cuphea and Didiplis in low-trace environments but they are guilty by association. :D

Pikez, do you plan get back to heavy CSM dosage or reduced anyway? Just wondering... because maybe you could try to dose a little bit less than before, so to find the "sweep spot" in order to not have any deficiencies, and at the same time avoid toxicities for more sensitive plants. Thoughts?
 

Pikez

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bsantucci said:
Makes sense. I struggled with Nasaea and Didiplis also. Maybe I'll revisit those once this gets squared away. I'm hopeful my Miller's testing will be positive and if not, Flourish should work just fine to keep the toxicity away and still provide what is needed.


If you have issues with Rotala, it is a solid bet that you will also have issues with Ammannia, Nesaea, Didiplis, and Cuphea. I always like to have one of these as an indicator plant. Might as well pick the prettiest one - Rotala mac. Other indicators: Eicchornia diversifolia for CO2 and traces; Pantanal for macros/light/CO2; Hygro pinnatifida/Kompact for excess traces, Blyxa for ammonium/a; Alternanthera for Cal/Mag, etc.
 

Pikez

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fablau said:
Pikez, do you plan get back to heavy CSM dosage or reduced anyway? Just wondering... because maybe you could try to dose a little bit less than before, so to find the "sweep spot" in order to not have any deficiencies, and at the same time avoid toxicities for more sensitive plants. Thoughts?


Back to regular programming.


Not heavy CSM. I think it is moderate to light CSM+B given traditional EI suggestions. May be at 50% of EI.


More details here: http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/aquascaping/223782-going-dutch-with-aquasoil/page6


If I go lighter, it will depends on what the plants say. I don't have any preconceived ideas of how many ppm any mineral should be. If everything looks great, I'll stay here. I may add some traditionally touchy plants and see how they react. If their leaf tips crimp, I may go down on CSM a bit more. I have emersed Ammannia gracilis that I might toss in.
 

fablau

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Pikez said:
Back to regular programming.


Not heavy CSM. I think it is moderate to light CSM+B given traditional EI suggestions. May be at 50% of EI.


More details here: http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/aquascaping/223782-going-dutch-with-aquasoil/page6


If I go lighter, it will depends on what the plants say. I don't have any preconceived ideas of how many ppm any mineral should be. If everything looks great, I'll stay here. I may add some traditionally touchy plants and see how they react. If their leaf tips crimp, I may go down on CSM a bit more. I have emersed Ammannia gracilis that I might toss in.


Yes, thank you Pikez, I read your post with detailed info there. You are right: plants will tell!
 

Amanda Adkins

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In response to the posts concerning CSM or micronutrient toxicity, aquariumfertilizer.com has come out with a new fertilizer blend, Macro Mix, an equal part mixture of potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate, magnesium sulfate and mono potassium phosphate.
 

fablau

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Julia Adkins said:
In response to the posts concerning CSM or micronutrient toxicity, aquariumfertilizer.com has come out with a new fertilizer blend, Macro Mix, an equal part mixture of potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate, magnesium sulfate and mono potassium phosphate.

Julie, that new mix is for macro... how can that be relevant to the micro nutrient toxicity we talked about?
 

Pikez

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Julia Adkins said:
In response to the posts concerning CSM or micronutrient toxicity, aquariumfertilizer.com has come out with a new fertilizer blend, Macro Mix, an equal part mixture of potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate, magnesium sulfate and mono potassium phosphate.

Getting off topic here. But 1:1:1:1 ratio? If so, I suspect I'd get insufficient nitrates and magnesium and certainly too much phosphates. Am I misinterpreting your post?
 

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Solcielo lawrencia said:
Here's A. pedicellata "Golden":


Ammannia%20pedicellata%20tox_zpsu6mxoj27.jpg



It was stunted for months and simply would not grow. You can see new growth coming out of the matchstick head when conditions improved.

Solcielo - do you have a current picture of the Ammannia pedicellata?


Would love to see what it's done in the one month since you posted this picture. It seemed to be coming back to life.
 

Dennis Singh

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light/co2

that is the answer
filter? uses sponge filters in garage tank, same reds same giant growth, can easily take them away and get growth
ferts? he always says ferts are easy, so just add them

water chemistry (HUGE) in my opinion, if you have good tap water, soft, nutrients, and possibly algaecides in there as well
you can pretty much do as many water changes with easy as you want with a python or some sort
i have found the water changes are just good no matter what, even overdone, but you still need to supplement

barr has great tap water
NY has great tap water

I don't want to build a reservoir, so i fill jugs and its a pain

sorry bump this old thread, i'm still aiming for reds, I'm still aiming for thick trees....
 

Renan Ogiwara

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A. pedicellata is a wretched little plant…at least in my experience. I can never grow the damn thing. Pisses me off. It's true that they go 'quiet' when first moved to a new tank. But they never seem to recover fully even after a month or two. I invariably end up tossing the stumps after a couple of months. although mine never looked quite as bad as the lower half of your plant.


Your plant seems to be showing signs of life. Nice to see some color finally, I imagine. Please post picture updates on this plant if you can over the next couple of months.


I have a radical thought...


antbug was having severe problems with Rotala Sunset a year or two ago - drooping leaves and melting stems. He claimed to have same water/CO2/ferts/substrate as Tom. Both have same tap water.


Tom Barr had no issues with the plant.


So Antbug gave Tom one of his melting gimpy Rotala Sunset. And sure enough, in 2 weeks, the plant was perfectly healthy and sprouting large pretty leaves in Tom tank. The whole thing was documented on TPT.


So, Solcielo, say in two months, if the pedicellata is not dramatically better in the low-trace environment, and Tom is willing to toss it in his tank, will you be amenable to parting with the plant? I'll sweeten the deal by paying for shipping and cost of plant.


I just want to see how this difficult plant responds to the change in trace levels.


Are you two open to the idea?
Does it make sense if I say that in my little hydroponics culture of aquatic plants… these plants thrive very good at GH20> and died off very fast at soft water? The things were from juice growing from melting and dying away