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Csm+b

Discussion in 'Talk to Tom Barr' started by Tug, Dec 26, 2009.

  1. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I have just received a duel-stage regulator from Left C and can tell you that I am very excited to begin adding pressurized CO2. I also want to thank Tom, Greg and all the subscribers for the Barr Report. It is almost as fun as watching the fish make their way through the weeds, now growing in my tank.

    My question is pretty simple. If it's even a question at all. I have been mixing CSM+B as a stock solution at half the recommended amount of CSM+B (1 tablespoon to 500ml water). I have been getting slow sustained growth under 1.2wpg of T5HO lighting, but with pressurized CO2 and possibly more light down the road I will be increasing the amounts of chemicals to the stock solution (500mL water) to the following; 2 tablespoons of CSM+B as well as 2 teaspoons of Fe-DTPA and 1 tablespoon K2SO4 for my stock solution. A 5mL dose of the new stock solution into a 56L water column should add .45ppm Fe and 1.45ppm potassium, plus the other micro-nutrients. If anyone would like to comment on the difference between the two stock solutions. I am mostly concerned about what I might suggest to others if they wish to mix CSM+B Plantex into stock solutions for liquid dosing. I think that I have been confusing PMDD with the EI method.

    Best wishes,

    Mike
     
    #1 Tug, Dec 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2009
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    With low light, I think that's pretty rich, stick with the older dose for CMS, add 1/2 that amount of the DTPA to that solution, you can add the K2SO4 either way(up to you and what ever amount you want to use, just make sure to add enough K+).

    EI and various folks have modified the dosing, but..........it's relative, not an absolute, and can be tweaked to suit various water conditions.....and should be really.
    Not written in stone.

    More importantly, stick with the light you have and get good at the CO2.
    That's much more the key to things.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  3. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Thanks Tom,
    will do. What is your concern with the amount of Fe-DSMB? Im assuming it has something to do with low levels of Mn (not algae), but find I'm unfamiliar with any problem associated with Fe excess/toxicity. No rush. Enjoy your vacation. While I'll do as you suggested, it's back to the news letter on iron - I must of missed something. Maybe someone can pick up the slack while your away. :cool:

    Happy New year!
     
  4. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    I've been grouping CSM+B with other chelated iron and magnesium into the same bottle just fine, though be sure to add magnesium first and HCL at the end. The all-in-one thing is debatable as to its stability because of the phosphate, though I'm going to give it a try anyhow and see what happens; my next bout of fert ordering will include the necessary ingredient for James' tropica reproduction. Even if I stick with a 2 bottle system, it would be nice to get everything except phosphate in on WC day given that most of us dose imperfectly.

    Anyhow, your mix is good for low light with a nutrient loaded substrate; I've found food tends to take care of PO4 and NO3 in lower light tanks. Keeping an N/P solution around for the odd dose wouldn't be a bad idea if you notice deficiency.
     
  5. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I have been fooling around a little bit myself, but I add magnesium with the water change. I might add it to the trace solution at some point, so why should magnesium be added first to the trace solution?
    Are manganese levels sufficient in CSM+B to provide non-limiting amounts with the additional chelated iron?

    One other question I am working out concerns adding HCL for shelf stability of trace solutions. I am considering ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate instead. Do you have any feelings about that, (pros and cons)?
     
    #5 Tug, Jan 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2010
  6. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    The dinamics of manganese and iron are something I'm not deep into when it comes to luxury uptake. I've heard there's only so much manganese required, and that the typical ratios aren't needed to be enforced for luxury uptake, but that's just hearsay. I mostly dump in the extra iron without CSM+B because I'm not rolling my own micros right now, and I don't want the increased copper levels that will mess with newly hatched shrimp. So far the extra iron seems to help (very subjective though); my plants seem to survive neglect better. Once I start rolling my own micros, I'll probably try increasing the Mn.

    Now as for HCl, I really don't tend to care about the Cl. At most it's what? 2ml of pure HCL per L of fertilizer? That's about 7ppm of Cl in the bottle vs. Flourish at around 11ppm. Divide that by 1000, multiply by 3, and you've got all of .02ppm dosed.

    Ascorbic acid/potassium sorbate work, but they'll cost more in the long run. I haven't heard of any specific advantage outside of marketing and turning iron green.
     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Tug,

    If you are just making four week batches, cleanliness should take care of any shelf life issues as Dan points out HCL is a good choice but for small quantities unless you have other purposes for the HCL, the ascorbic acid, crush up a vitamin C pill will do just fine. Potassium sorbate if you happen to have it will work well.

    I add extra magnesium to my macros, figuring the micros also has it, but I though your tap water had a lot of magnesium.

    I believe Dan is correct regarding the manganese levels in CSM+B being sufficient. I add a third again chelated iron to the CSM+B stock.

    How is the new CO2 setup? Santa was good to you!

    Biollante
     
  8. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Dear Biollante,
    Welcome back. How was the food in Spain during your stay?

    As for me, I have been slow to move to the new CO2 setup. Just looking for a place to get CO2 refills for the cylinder not yet purchased is putting me off. I also would like to beef up my filter some first and find some incidentals before changing to pressurized. Mostly, I have to stop procrastinating. Once it's in motion I will have more information. Yes, Santa was good. Me, not so much - but good enough.

    The supposed Mg deficiency is with the brackish water tank and is more likely a CO2 issue. It is doing surprisingly well otherwise.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Spain And Spaniards Are Marvelous!

    Hi Tug,

    I love food, especially vegetarians and Spaniards do vegetarians with great flourish and flavor, and I did not want to come back. They also do many filter feeders and other critters incredibly well.:cool:

    I tried to get this site from Spain, but was still Barr’ed. One of my guys got Professor Greg and begged and pleaded with him to let me back on, and against all common sense, much to the chagrin of all, I was able to log on and post. (Technically I was always able to log on, any button I pushed thereafter brought up a page saying the “The administrator has revoked your privileges,” or some such.)

    I have promised to be good, which is not as easy as it sounds being, well, an evil plant monster.:eek:

    You are a very bright young man, don’t over think things, learn, do and learn, gain feedback from the universe. One of my favorite Samuel Beckett quotes “Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.” :gw(Uh oh, one of those ‘old-guy’ moments.):gw

    As to the Magnesium in a brackish water tank, don’t sweat it, when in doubt add the Epsom Salt. A quarter teaspoon for every ten gallons or so isn’t going to hurt anything and if Magnesium is limiting, you have taken care of the problem. The great thing about brackish water is that it fluctuates anyway. I think brackish water aquaria are the great secret of our hobby.;)

    Santa was good to you; talking smack about Santa ain’t healthy! :gw

    Biollante
     

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