CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

jonathan11

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Tom- On one of your replys regarding gsa, you suggested using TMG or Flourish as opposed to CSM+B. Could you explain why? :gw :D
 

Tom Barr

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

Different chelators, experience.
CMS is decent for $, I just like the results of the TMG and the Flourish personally. It also puts me and others on the same page(not everyone has access to CMS+B) as far as what we are using.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

srozell

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

I have access to chems cheap in Canada, including the Canadian equivalent to CSM+B, which a lot of people ask for, but I prefer Flourish in my own tanks.

I've found that going a PMDD route in a soil tank with over feeding SEEMS okay, but in that case the PMDD is really only acting as a fert-insurance, but in a CO2 tank it doesn't take long to see the difference.

I haven't worked out the cost difference, but though it may be 4 or 5 times more expensive I still use flourish.
 

Greg Watson

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

jonathan11 said:
Tom- On one of your replys regarding gsa, you suggested using TMG or Flourish as opposed to CSM+B. Could you explain why? :gw :D

We often refer to Micro Nutrients as "traces" ... I like to think of it in the context that they are "trace" amounts of mineral elements.

Flourish has about 12 mineral elements that Plantex CSM+B and TMG don't have ... I will often recommend that people who are using Flourish continue to do so unless there is a reason why they want to change ...

Even though I *think* Tom prefers TMG to Flourish, I don't think there is a material difference between Plantex CSM+B and TMG (except that TMG also contains Potassium) ...

There are a lot of people who use half Flourish and half Plantex CSM+B - I can understand that approach because it provides a contribution of those last 12 microscopic amounts of trace elements not present in either Plantex or TMG ...

At the last AGA convention, Tom started running down a list of nutrient deficiencies starting with Carbon, the Macros, and then down into the list of micro nutrients ... most people don't get to a "perfect" enough point where a deficiency in these last mineral elements shows up in their tanks ... but the closer you get to a stable aquarium, eventually, it can or will have an impact ...

When these last 12 or so trace elements might have an impact is also a function of whether these trace elements are present in your water supply and the frequency and magnitude of your water changes.

For example, the typical Plantex CSM+B solution has 118% of the amount of Magnesium as Flourish has and TMG has 337% of the amount of Magnesium as Flourish has. If you are in a soft water environment, this higher amount of Magnesium may (especially in the case of TMG) give you better performance than Flourish does ... and this is my personal "guess" about why Tom might prefer TMG to Flourish, that is the higher amount of Magnesium ...

However, the typical Plantex CSM+B solution and TMG do not have the Calcium, Sodium, Amino Acids, Potassium, Phosphate, Cobalt, Nickle, Bromine, Iodine, Rubidum, Tin, and Vanadium that Flourish has ...

Also, TMG has only about 18% of the amount of Iron that Flourish has; similarly, Plantex CSM+B has only about 82% of the amount of Iron that Flourish has (one of the main reasons why I recommend dosing 1.25 times the amount of Plantex CSM+B compared to similar amounts of Flourish) ...

Different products will perform differently based upon your unique water conditions ... in my opinion, Flourish is the Cadillac, the best of all currently available worlds ... many of us for cost reasons may get along just fine with a cheaper do-it-yourself alternative like Plantex CSM+B ... and with regular water changes, many of us may find the balance of the trace elements we need in our local water supply ...

I've got a side by side comparison of the percentage breakdown of the ingredients - comparing both Plantex CSM+B and TMG to Flourish ... I'll see if Tom will let me post that here ...

Greg
 

Tom Barr

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

Very few folks are able to see trace element differences since the other macro's and CO2 play such large roles and need to be stable to gauge the traces.

It just takes time and experience.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Greg Watson

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

Laith said:
In looking at the table here,

http://www.gpodio.com/fert_table.asp

it looks like CSM+B has a lot more Iron than Flourish...

Is the table incorrect?

Flourish is a liquid solution...

Plantex CSM+B is a dry mix ...

When you make liquid solution out of a dry mix of Plantex CSM+B, you have to compare the percentages in solution (i.e. diluted by the water) ... not the percentage in a Flourish solution compared to the percentage in a Plantex CSM+B dry mix before it is mixed up ...

So is the table incorrect? I don't think I would quite say that ... but for true comparison purposes, you would want to compare the percentages of a Plantex CSM+B liquid solution to the Flourish liquid solution ....

So does that make sense?

Greg
 

Tom Barr

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

I think the extra Cu and Mn, Mg are a good addition.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Bill

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

I buy Flourish in 2 liter bottles and I also bought a 2 liter bottle of Flourish Trace.

According to the chart it sure looks like a big waste buying the Flourish Trace.

Is there any use for it?


Bill
 

Laith

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

Greg Watson said:
Flourish is a liquid solution...

Plantex CSM+B is a dry mix ...

When you make liquid solution out of a dry mix of Plantex CSM+B, you have to compare the percentages in solution (i.e. diluted by the water) ... not the percentage in a Flourish solution compared to the percentage in a Plantex CSM+B dry mix before it is mixed up ...

So is the table incorrect? I don't think I would quite say that ... but for true comparison purposes, you would want to compare the percentages of a Plantex CSM+B liquid solution to the Flourish liquid solution ....

So does that make sense?

Greg

Obviously... my head was elsewhere when I made that comment! :rolleyes:

No, I'm *not* getting senile! :(
 

Greg Watson

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

Bill said:
I buy Flourish in 2 liter bottles and I also bought a 2 liter bottle of Flourish Trace.

According to the chart it sure looks like a big waste buying the Flourish Trace.

Is there any use for it?


Bill

It would make a kick butt good companion to Plantex CSM+B ...

Greg
 

srozell

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

Greg Watson said:
It would make a kick butt good companion to Plantex CSM+B ...

Greg

LOL, coming from the man who sells CSM+B, but not Flourish!

Mistake me not however. Your service is excellent Greg, and I know you're in it for the right reasons. I just thought your comment was cute. :D
 

Greg Watson

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

srozell said:
LOL, coming from the man who sells CSM+B, but not Flourish!

Mistake me not however. Your service is excellent Greg, and I know you're in it for the right reasons. I just thought your comment was cute. :D

I often recommend Flourish ...

It is my opinion that if you are already using Flourish, why change unless you have a good reason too ...

Budgets are about the only good reason I know of ... my 180 gallon tank costs me about $400 a year just to maintain, that does not include any new fish or plants ... not everyone has that kind of "hobby" money available to them ...

But for many other people, dropping $400 on the latest new fangle gadget is no big deal ...

I got my butt chewed last week by a "quote/unquote" customer for not carrying Seachem Equilibrium ... something about how unethical it was for me to not carry everything Tom recommends ... he didn't think it was even remotely funny when I recommended BigAlsOnline.com or DrsFosterSmith.com ... so I drove 67 miles to the nearest local fish store, bought some and billed him for it ... to him, the few extra dollars he had to pay me was nothing ...

Greg
 

groovyfishguy

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

Greg Watson said:
I often recommend Flourish ...

It is my opinion that if you are already using Flourish, why change unless you have a good reason too ...

Budgets are about the only good reason I know of ... my 180 gallon tank costs me about $400 a year just to maintain, that does not include any new fish or plants ... not everyone has that kind of "hobby" money available to them ...

But for many other people, dropping $400 on the latest new fangle gadget is no big deal ...

I got my butt chewed last week by a "quote/unquote" customer for not carrying Seachem Equilibrium ... something about how unethical it was for me to not carry everything Tom recommends ... he didn't think it was even remotely funny when I recommended BigAlsOnline.com or DrsFosterSmith.com ... so I drove 67 miles to the nearest local fish store, bought some and billed him for it ... to him, the few extra dollars he had to pay me was nothing ...

Greg

Wow what an .......
Not you Greg :D
 

srozell

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

groovyfishguy said:
Wow what an .......
Not you Greg :D


But more impressively, what service. I tire of vendors that say "Nope, can't do it." when all they need to do was get creative.

I'm a service manager myself, and it's nice to see service oriented venders out there. Good work Greg.
 

Greg Watson

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Re: CSM+B vs TMG?Flourish

srozell said:
But more impressively, what service. I tire of vendors that say "Nope, can't do it." when all they need to do was get creative.

I'm a service manager myself, and it's nice to see service oriented venders out there. Good work Greg.

Ahhh ... but I am the Chief Toilet Plunger at my "real" job ... so filling an order or two every day is a welcome diversion ...

Greg