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CSM+B question

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by Firstman, Oct 4, 2009.

  1. Firstman

    Firstman Junior Poster

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    Had a quick question about your experiences with CSM+B. I am dosing Seachem Flourish for traces and Iron. I am getting some new growth on my Repens which is yellowing. I think this is Iron deficiency. I would like to try CSM+B but don't have any experience with it. I have read that it still lacks in the Iron department. I am getting quite leary about info on the net and wanted to know what you, the people who actually use it and have experience with it, thought about it.

    I ask because I want to know if I should use CSM+B or should I just continue using Flourish but start adding Iron Chelate 10% ?

    Thank you in advance.
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Can you give some color?

    CSM+B will give you as much iron as you choose.

    I dose iron on the high side 2 ppm or so using CSM+B.

    Biollante
     
  3. Firstman

    Firstman Junior Poster

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    I apologize, but I don't understand what you mean by 'Can you give some color?'.
     
  4. rich815

    rich815 Guru Class Expert

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    >>>>>I would like to try CSM+B but don't have any experience with it. I have read that it still lacks in the Iron department.

    Where did you read that?
     
  5. Firstman

    Firstman Junior Poster

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    Not a statement made on one site. I did a google search "CSM+B Iron Dosing' (or something to that affect) and found numerous posts on numerous forums saying that people were having trouble with Iron and CSM+B. Some talked about trying CSM+B plus Iron. Don't know what that is. I am taking this with a grain of salt, maybe these people didn't know how to use it properly. I don't know. I was just curious what you guys thought.

    I don't know how to dose with CSM+B since I haven't ever used it.
     
  6. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi,

    Sorry, in my other world people asking for information or background, ask for more ‘color’ silly slang.:eek:

    You did rather give me the information in the next posts.:)

    Back in the olden days of the past millennium, many who used CSM, then the follow-on CSM+B used iron as proxy for all micros, because we could test for iron with relative ease. Particularly those of us using Poor Man’s Dosing Drops, PMDD used to target 0.1ppm iron, many reasons for that, most turned out to be silly.

    As I mentioned earlier I now dose closer to 2 ppm iron via CSM+B and I no longer test for iron as I know (or believe) this to be a non-limiting dose of micros. I was actually told and read that I would kill the critters, kill the plants if I dared approach 1 ppm iron.:eek:

    The truly wonderful thing about the dry fertilizers, I can dose 20 times higher for very modest increase in price.:D

    I know some add iron (when I say iron, I mean chelated iron) so as not to raise the other micros, I guess I still look at the iron as the proxy for the other micronutrients, as iron is the major micronutrient.

    People on the internet and in this hobby say many things.

    I hope that helps, was what you were looking for.

    Biollante
     
  7. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    You can definitely dose chelated iron along side flourish. Odds are unless you're pushing around .22-.44ppm Fe from flourish, you aren't getting the same sort of quantity of nutrients that CSM+B will offer.

    If you want to do CSM+B, I push up to .6ppm. I believe 10g in 1L DI H2O dosing 1ml for every 2L of column should give you a .335ppm or so weekly dose of Fe, and the rest should follow suit just fine.

    As Biollante said, you can push higher with CSM+B to get more iron. Or, if you prefer, add a little chelated iron to increase it even higher. Iron dosing is another one of those nutrients that is going to increase from typical hobby levels. There are some good threads around here linking to research showing the higher demand.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of yellowing? Is it yellow all over, Yellow vein? Interveinal chlorosis? Yellowing from the edges inward? New or old growth?

    -Philosophos
     
  8. Firstman

    Firstman Junior Poster

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    What would be the drawback of raising the micros? If you do a 50% WC at the end of every week to restart your nutrient load. This shouldn't be a problem. Right? Same as macros using EI. If there isn't a drawback I would like to just get the CSM+B and increase dosage to reach higher Iron levels if needed. From a cost stand point I wouldn't want a $10 bag of Chelated lying around.
    Thank you for your input.
     
  9. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    You could probably just increase the CSM+B without issues. I don't have all the studies for every sort of fauna that goes into a tank and its unique sensitivities, but I doubt if it would be an issue, and the plants won't complain.

    Adding chelated iron is something I do because I've already got a bag of it sitting around. I also do it because it costs maybe $4 more per pound to do the same thing with chelated iron that you could with CSM+B, only you gain the ability to control a single variable more closely.

    -Philosophos
     
  10. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    EDTA Iron in Plantex CSM doesn't last long in higher pH water.
    Mixing iron chelated with other chelator (such as DTPA) has a benefit here.
     
  11. Firstman

    Firstman Junior Poster

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    It is a yellow all over on new growth at the top of the plant. For now.
     
  12. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    All over new growth? Probably iron then. The veins should be a little less yellow than the rest of the leaf if it is.

    -Philosophos
     
  13. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi All,

    One of my reasons for dosing higher CSM+B as opposed to just adding chelated iron is to keep the balance of micros, in particular manganese, without which iron chelated by any means, is useless.

    I have been told that the iron manganese relationship only reaches to a certain point after which chelated iron can be added without concern for manganese. I have not tried this. Tom Barr’s iron and manganese newsletter http://www.barrreport.com/barr-report-newsletter/1847-barr-report-newsletter-iron-manganese.html.

    The big ‘downside’ for me with high dose of CSM+B is the copper, the water here has high copper content some otherwise hardy plants are sensitive. I have not found the issue to be overly difficult; I dose some tanks at 1 ppm iron with copper sensitive plants. It does require a fairly high level of copper to do damage.

    I have yet to find a plant or critter sensitive to these levels of iron, thought I was ‘pushing it’ when I drove the iron levels to 5 or 6 ppm, then I see Tom Barr talking about tanks at 200 ppm.

    If you have a high pH tank and are concerned that the EDTA Iron in CSM+B doesn't last long in higher pH water, dose daily. I have some higher pH tanks and have not seen this problem, a few knickers in a knot over it though, so for what it is worth.

    For what it is worth the diagnosis Philosophos offered sound correct, all else being equal, more iron.

    Biollante
     
  14. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Any issues with Shrimp or snails with the CSM+B at the levels you are dosing? The "high" copper content does concern me but that may not be an issue.

    -
    S
     
  15. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Shrimp sensitivity with CSM+B is almost a non-issue. You'd have to be dumping in massive amounts to reach an LD50. I made a post on the subject a while back. The most sensitive LC50 I can find is listed for Neocaridina denticulata (cherry shrimp) at .14ppm of Cu. Many studies for this same species are as high as .4-.7.

    The EPA action level in the US for tap is 1.3ppm, and I've seen plenty of water quality tests from various areas in the .1-.4 range. Meanwhile to hit even .09ppm Cu from CSM+B, you'd have to be hitting over 6.53ppm Fe. This is near the maximum luxury uptake of some plants, let alone non-limiting.

    Blame your tap long before the CSM+B. If you're going to dose iron up into high ranges, consider some Fe DPTA anyhow; it works better.

    -Philosophos
     
  16. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Paranoid!

    Hi All,

    I have never had a copper problem directly with the CSM+B with either shrimp or plants.:)

    My problems have all related to copper spikes in the tap water and I really got clobbered. So I have become a little skittish with anything containing copper, likely I am being paranoid (just because you are paranoid, does not mean they are not out to get you ;) ).

    I now routinely test my tap water, which is likely the reasonable alternative. :rolleyes:

    Biollante
     
  17. adechazal

    adechazal Prolific Poster

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    This discussion has been great, you guys answered a bunch of my questons but I still have two:

    1. I'm on well water for my 180g which I mix with R/O due to the high hardness of the well water. The well water is also very high in iron, do any of you know if the iron in the well water is useable by the plants or should I be dosing as though there is no iron in the tap water?

    2. I currently use Flourish complete for traces and until recently had not researched CSM+B. Can I just eliminate the Flourish and start using the CSM+B instead?

    Thanks for any feedback.

    Aaron
     
  18. DaBub

    DaBub Guru Class Expert

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    Iron from your water is probably not 'chelated'. not useful to plants.

    maybe someone can tell if you can add stuff to make iron useful.
     
  19. newpain01

    newpain01 Junior Poster

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    Hi All!
    I want to ask you is it better to dose CSM+B dry or dissolved in water? I 've heard that if CSM+B is dissolved in water, after some time, the B in CSM+B reacts with some other nutrient, or something, and the fertilizer becomes less usefull to the plants, so by dosing dry we get all the usefull nutrients from CSM+B. Is this true?
    Thanks
     
  20. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Newpain, I've never heard of this happening. Could you direct me to the source claiming that B causes issues with the rest of CSM+B?

    I mix stock solutions of CSM+B with some other things and have yet to see issues. If anything, the main thing is to keep mold from growing; the easiest answer for you would probably be to add excel to the mixture.

    I like stock dosing over dry for convenience, but really so long as you just pre-dilute your dry ferts in some tank water just before dumping it into the tank you'll get the same benefit from more even distribution.

    -Philosophos
     
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