CSM+B compared to Flourish

jeff5614

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I've been using Flourish for a few years and I'm thinking about changing to CSM+B for the cost savings. I'm curious as to anyone's experience in switching, did you see a change in plants, etc?

I've also been reading the guaranteed analysis of Flourish and CSM+B on Aquariumfertilizer.com. If I reconstitute CSM+B following their directions would it approximate the same dosage of Flourish?

Thanks,
Jeff
 

shoggoth43

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I'm about to try the same thing here. I just ordered a bunch from them but also some of the chelated iron to add to it. I'm not sure how that will stack up though.

-
S
 

Philosophos

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A lot of minerals come along in the tap, for most of us straight CSM+B works just fine. I spice mine up with extra Fe and magnesium.

Having used both, I can't say there's a big difference. When I do high % RO, I supplement with flourish a little just to make sure the trace elements get in there.
 

jonny_ftm

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My WC doesn't include tap, only RO
I switched from TPN to CSM+B and I only see a much better growth as I increased dosing: TPN is so expensive and low dosed compared tp CSM+B
 

Tom Barr

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I talked about the commercial brands vs CMS for several years now.
None of us could honestly say the commercial brands did any better.
This was with a wide range of species, tank conditions, KH/GH etc.

So I was going to make my own custom blend of trace........but it would cost much more than CMS........so why bother?
Unless I was really good at marketing/not telling certain obvious things, it would be a tough sell.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Philosophos

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CSM+B works in pure RO without causing deficiencies? Food or substrate must be providing the rest without much trouble then.

Sorry to hear about the trace not working out, Tom.

EDTA is my major complaint with CSM+B; yellowing water and such.
 

barbarossa4122

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Not an expert by any means but, since I started dosing TPN and CSM+B my plants are doing much better.
 
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Brian20

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I use Plantex and never used flourish again. Flourish is good, maybe more than plantex alone but plantes is so cheap. Also using Plantex, KNO3, and K2H2PO4 is a lot better than flourish alone with fishes poo. The dry ferts go directly to the plant.
 

jonny_ftm

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Philosophos;47622 said:
CSM+B works in pure RO without causing deficiencies? Food or substrate must be providing the rest without much trouble then.
EDTA is my major complaint with CSM+B; yellowing water and such.
Yes, it works great. Most of my plants are rooted in substrate indeed. In my nano, with floating plants, I use TPN as I have stocks to make it run for some years (only use 6ml/week)

About EDTA and yellow water, I added DTPA, lowered CSM+B dosing to approach TPN dosing on other micros, and no more issues. I dose CSM+B dry, directly in water

Brian20;47628 said:
Flourish is good, maybe more than plantex alone...
I really doubt anyone can prove FL is better than plantex. FL is only gluconate Fe, so, based on Fe only, it is worst than CSM+B probably, depending on water
 
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Brian20

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that can be true, I dosed like 3x more with flourish than plantex.
 

Tom Barr

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Philosophos;47622 said:
CSM+B works in pure RO without causing deficiencies? Food or substrate must be providing the rest without much trouble then.

Sorry to hear about the trace not working out, Tom.

EDTA is my major complaint with CSM+B; yellowing water and such.

What do you mean? One less hassle!

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Wet

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So I was going to make my own custom blend of trace........but it would cost much more than CMS........so why bother?
Unless I was really good at marketing/not telling certain obvious things, it would be a tough sell.
I've been thinking of this. Only also with lots more Gluteraldehyde than most add directly to their trace mixes -- like the equivalent of 5mLs Excel per 20 gal and with a mix of DTPA, EDDHA and maybe EDTA (if starting with CSM+B). I'm just pretty sure it's not worth the pain in the ass of people's orders and shipping and shit for hobby dough, you know? But I have Cidex Pro here and looking for MnSO4 (what would Tropica do?) and Boric acid (just because) and will post about it after this science project I'm doing that you'll like. I would call this trace + algecide + psuedo-carbon "The Good Shit." I'm telling you (Orlando? AquariumFertilizer?) that would sell itself.
 
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Brian20

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Biollante I think that depends of the plants, If the plants like high GH you need GH booster. Still the Plantex have low Mg and not have Calcium.
 

Tom Barr

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Wet;47653 said:
I've been thinking of this. Only also with lots more Gluteraldehyde than most add directly to their trace mixes -- like the equivalent of 5mLs Excel per 20 gal and with a mix of DTPA, EDDHA and maybe EDTA (if starting with CSM+B). I'm just pretty sure it's not worth the pain in the ass of people's orders and shipping and shit for hobby dough, you know? But I have Cidex Pro here and looking for MnSO4 (what would Tropica do?) and Boric acid (just because) and will post about it after this science project I'm doing that you'll like. I would call this trace + algecide + psuedo-carbon "The Good Shit." I'm telling you (Orlando? AquariumFertilizer?) that would sell itself.

Then you are still stuck with shipping a liquid that's a general biocide in diluted form.
USPS is NOT going to ship anything liquid fragile or potentially hazardous.

This loses on all three shipping issues.
Any other trnasport is either in house carriers or regulatored and special packing etc.

The point is to use dry powder, not liquid.
Excel or equivalents are not dry.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Philosophos

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Tom Barr;47651 said:
What do you mean? One less hassle!

Regards,
Tom Barr

It also means I get to have yellow water or mix my own traces :p

I guess I'm a little sorry for myself, too. ;)
 

Wet

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Tom Barr;47678 said:
Then you are still stuck with shipping a liquid that's a general biocide in diluted form.
USPS is NOT going to ship anything liquid fragile or potentially hazardous.

This loses on all three shipping issues.
Any other trnasport is either in house carriers or regulatored and special packing etc.

The point is to use dry powder, not liquid.
Excel or equivalents are not dry.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Legality... right. I agree, then: but I think the magic in marketing this is targeting those folks who want an already pre-mixed solution that provides a plus vs Tropica or CSM+B. (And, as a guy who's used Microplex, CSM+B, Greg's old CSM+B+Extra Fe, Flourish, and TMG, and DTPA and EDDHA sources of Fe, I gotta say TMG is the best micro nutrient I've ever used. The rest are pretty much the same, but I'd give a slight edge to Microplex. This makes me wonder about Mn -- hobbyist level tests coming -- which, in Microplex and Tropica, is a in a higher ratio to other heavy metals v CSM + B [and thanks for pointing this out, Neil Frank]. In either case I think it significant you and lots of other folks happily dose plus chelators in addition to these other micro nutrient fertilizers, save for [generally] Tropica folk. Relevant here is Tropica folk get two chelators out of the bottle.)

In terms of marketing -- and I am not a marketing person, though I sit in on stuff for architecture issues and find it amazing people specialize in marketing :) -- I think the market asking for a product is the guy who's willing to tackle the major stuff (macros, CO2) but doesn't want to deal with the bagillion and 1 micros we talk about and who'd happily buy TPN if it was at the old TMG prices. "Good Shit, a Trace Fertilizer" has to be more than Flourish and less than TPN to work, in my mind at least.

So, DIY'd Good Shit it is :)
 
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Tom Barr

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Well, there's some rational to using TMG or brand name of most of the DIY stuff, but traces are not used in larger amounts for many folks, eg if you have 20-55 gal tank, but if you 500 gallons worth of aquarium.........
Liquids pose an issue for shipping though cheaply.

It's better to sell it dry, then have the buyer mix in some Excel etc.
You can add other anti fungal or dry mix acids to the powder.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
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Brian20

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I sell nutrients sometimes here and I sold more liquid ferts than dry ferts, even when I say that dry are better, people like liquid because it's so easy to dose.
 

Philosophos

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Ease of dosing is a big part of why I mix stock solutions. One bottle, one measuring cup, it's faster than feeding.
 

Tug

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Hi all,
Wet said:
This makes me wonder about Mn -- hobbyist level tests coming -- which, in Microplex and Tropica, is a in a higher ratio to other heavy metals v CSM + B [and thanks for pointing this out, Neil Frank].
I've been wondering the same thing myself. Given the amount of extra Fe we decide to add and the levels of copper in CSM (plus what's in the tap water) are Mn levels lower then needed?. For example I add 1/32 tsp CSM+B to 56L water and Fe DTPA. My levels of iron are around 0.225 every time I dose. My tap water has copper levels ~ 0.008-0.1ppm. One calculator out there says CSM is adding an additional 0.18ppm of Copper per dose. :confused: To be honest I haven't seen any problems that look like a deficiency. Could CSM+B use additional Mn?

Brian20 said:
I sell nutrients sometimes here and I sold more liquid ferts than dry ferts, even when I say that dry are better, people like liquid because it's so easy to dose.
Maybe we need to explain the versatility of dry fertilizers. Along with dosing the water in their fish tank explain how it is also possible to add x amount to a gallon of water to feed house plants. Hell, I'd like to know that myself. :)
 
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