CRS's and high grades, a lesson in testing and back tracking

[Tom Barr]

Now this is not a SSS grade, but........SS Grade Double Hinomaru is not bad.

Lousy pic, I'll get around to getting a better one.

So what have I done different?
Kept the temp lower mostly.
Better breeding.

Dosing plant ferts has had no effect.

I mentioned I'd had 12 from about 4 years ago, then moved and netted out 45 or 50 a year later in this EI dosed tank:

Now some had suggested it was only low grades I could dose like this and that high grades where more "touchy". Since at that time I had no high grades, what could I say? Not much.

But it seemed a bit suspicious..................first they said all shrimp where hyper sensitive and we should not dose EI. Then only the newer shrimps, then only CRS's, now Suliwalsi's etc.......then only high grade CRS's.

Well, I have the higher grades, no SSS's but heck, at this point I'm willing to go out on a limb and call Bull manure on this argument entirely. Same thing/pattern occurred with PO4 and algae, then NO3 and algae, then NO3 and fish toxicity, then Discus, then only wild discus.......then only some species of obscure inbred discus that only 10 people have in the world.....

Well yea, I cannot test every possible thing, but.........I can test enough to get a good comparative representation of the effects of ferts or food etc.........on a critter.

Thus I can generalize quite well and suggest dosing ferts is fine for shrimp tanks, even the more $$$ ones. I would not go whole hog and dose without care however........I do not have enough experience or data to go that far.

Still, this is a balance between shrimp needs and the needs of the plants. Many shrimp zealots go too far and do not help or aid the plants in any way, then add nothing. A sick poor growing plant is not a good thing to add. A moderately growing plant is a much better addition, and the shrimps are just not at risk from CO2/ferts. Low light will help reduce demands, so will sediment ferts and reduce the CO2. So there's not a huge amount of ferts that are required to the water column with this method anyway. My fire shrimps have done well, but I have to keep some in a separate fire shrimp RCS only tanks to keep them breeding true. Sort of a dumber, slower version of the RCS but nice color.

Still, I find the same type of on line back tracking and going to a smaller and smaller more obscure more $$$ livestock when each hypothesis is falsified. The local folks in the club can come over and see the results themselves. I still find plenty of people willing to believe correlation/speculation and myth are somehow on equal terms with an actual specific test that has falsified the claim. This same process was done with heating cables, with PO4, with NO3, with fish, with sediment vs water column, with algae, with light and with several species of shrimp and various grades.

I do not blame anyone for not testing their high grades but having bred them, I have some I'm willing to test some hypothesis out on. All I need to demonstrate if that they are not affected by dosing or CO2.

Perhaps I'm lcky because my KH is low, or my temp is low.
I can never be sure to a high degree there, but I can be sure of what is not causing them to die or breed less. I have to expose them to some risk, but we are all fish and shrimp killers at some point and time. We have all killed our livestock at some point.

Doing this in a controlled careful manner slow and stepwise, I reduce this risk. Sometimes I add too much or over do it, sometimes other hobbyists do this and report no ill effects. Then I know I have less to worry about it and the unknown risk is reduced. That is what this is all about, going from speculation, unknown conditions, myths etc, and seeing what we can learn.

This gets beyond all that Bull manure ranting cheap talk.
Put that same effort into testing and you will learn a lot more.

:gw

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[CL_]

I'm glad you decided to post about this over here. I saw the other thread on PTF. I think it's funny how someone who just started keep shrimp a couple of months ago considers them-self an expert haha!
Well said

 

[Tom Barr]

I'm glad you decided to post about this over here. I saw the other thread on PTF. I think it's funny how someone who just started keep shrimp a couple of months ago considers them-self an expert haha!
Well said

I'll let the lurkers and others decide.
The topic was about shrimp and EI type dosing etc.
When folks start getting personal, that's when it's not about knowledge and learning really. If you are correct about the topic/question, then "do" and "show" that you are based on merit/logic. Flaming or personal BS should never enter into it.

Dealing with these folks?? Well, do not take it personally, let them do that job for you
Stick to the topic, they will fry out soon enough. They always do.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Msnikkistar]

I'm glad you decided to post about this over here. I saw the other thread on PTF. I think it's funny how someone who just started keep shrimp a couple of months ago considers them-self an expert haha!
Well said

Chris, if you have something to say, you should really say it to my face.

I am no expert on the matter, but I know what I do with my shrimp works.


Secondly,

The argument was about experiences with a person's tank. You thought it was a personal jab at you, but it was not. I simply stated that I have had good results without having to use EI or dry ferts for that matter and that when I researched on how to keep my shrimp, I took the majorities opinion on the matter to not use it. What you want me to do is experiment on creatures that I love as a person would love a dog. I do not want to do that. I feel it is inhumane to "test" or "experiment" on shrimp. And if what works for me, does work, then why should I have to change it? Because you say so? Because you say I am "fearful"? No, it is because I found a balance that WORKS for ME without having to use your methods. Regardless if the shrimp is $.50 or $30 per, I don't care. I wouldn't "test" or "experiment" on any of them. What you want me to do is say you are right? No, I am not going to say that. As I am not going to say you are wrong. What it boils down to is what the INDIVIDUAL is comfortable doing. I would rather be SURE that my shrimp have the best bet at surviving, and not "test" to see if they could or couldn't die. End of story. That is all. You are arguing for me to test and see what happens, and I am not going to do that, be it fear or just safety of an animal I love and care for. As well, I ADMITTED, that I only had easy to care for plants. I would not subject a higher quality plant to the regimen I do. That is unfair to the plant. Which is why I stay away from almost ALL stem plants to begin with.

I find it juvenile that you had to come here to "blast" me, and I think you are now making this a personal matter, when it is a conflict of opinions to begin with. The fact that you made this post to begin with, shows how personally you took it. This is not a "pee contest" but a difference of opinion when it comes to how one uses their tank. Every tank is different. Every individual is different. What works for me, doesn't have to work for you.

You can "hate" me if you like, but at the end of the day, guess what? It's only the internet.

 

[onefang]

I'm glad you decided to post about this over here. I saw the other thread on PTF. I think it's funny how someone who just started keep shrimp a couple of months ago considers them-self an expert haha!
Well said

I am not sure that this particular person thinks that they are an expert on shrimp keeping. I think that they just wanted to be uber-cautious with a significant investment.
The "getting personal" stuff was coming from both sides of the argument.. but I digress. This really matters not.

If you are correct about the topic/question, then "do" and "show" that you are based on merit/logic. Flaming or personal BS should never enter into it.

I'd say that unless you can show some empirical data of the effects of EI on some really high grades, most folks won't take the chance. Merit and logic don't really matter, unless you have the cold-hard data to back it up. You just simply calling BS because you can keep and breed middle grade shrimp in an EI dosed tank is experiential - The same as someone claiming that "EI dosing/dry ferts killed their shrimp" or "they stopped breeding". The only difference is that you do have merit, being who you are, So people tend to listen(especially when you form your arguments so eloquently, and you do ). Unless you can show, without room for rationalization, that there is no effects on Higher grade shrimps of EI / heavy fert dosing, then the whole discussion is moot.

I fear we have left the beaten path of scientific method with this one.

 

[Msnikkistar]

Just to add,

No moderators contacted me about any personal attacks on you as a person. I approached Sewingalot as a matter of fact, to ask her if I "personally" attacked you, and she felt that I did not. She closed the thread due to the last post, not because I said anything that was deemed inappropriate.

 

[Tom Barr]

I'd say that unless you can show some empirical data of the effects of EI on some really high grades, most folks won't take the chance.

Looks pretty good to me.
Unlike most folks, I took the chance. Same deal with dosing PO4, more NO3, CO2, measuring light with a PAR meter, with measuring what is in the ADA ferts, heater cable test, breeding perhaps 100 species of fish over 35 years? Maybe 6 species of shrimps now.

I wanted to know if there really was a risk associated with this claim.
Rather than merely assuming it was correct like most people.......as you say

Merit and logic don't really matter, unless you have the cold-hard data to back it up.

Ho hum........

You just simply calling BS because you can keep and breed middle grade shrimp in an EI dosed tank is experiential -

These look like middle grade?

Well what the heck, let's toss the fires in there too:

The tank:

Yawn............

Let's see your stuff??? Shut up or put up. Show me some dang tasty tanks and some SSS or higher's that are actually yours???

The same as someone claiming that "EI dosing/dry ferts killed their shrimp" or "they stopped breeding".

No, showing cause is a far more difficult case, simply falsifying something is much easier to do.
Even Einstein knew that all his theories could be undone by one person that falsified his hypothesis.

Maybe you are sharper than Einstein??I don't know.....maybe you are.

The only difference is that you do have merit, being who you are, So people tend to listen(especially when you form your arguments so eloquently, and you do ).

This has nothing to do with the merits of the debate or the results.
Would not matter if it was me or Bubba in the swamp who posted his first on line pic.
You have injected a personal BS argument into this since you lack support for your debate position.
This is trait of a weak debater FYI.

You might want to work on debating skills before going after me personally

Unless you can show, without room for rationalization, that there is no effects on Higher grade shrimps of EI / heavy fert dosing, then the whole discussion is moot.
I fear we have left the beaten path of scientific method with this one.

Actually it's a fairly straight forward.

If we assume that EI or any ppm's etc within those target ranges do indeed cause harm or are lethal to high grade CRS(say A to SS#) what would they be measured as?
Deaths? No breeding events? No growth?

If none of these issues appear, then it is quite safe to assume that EI or the ranges of PPM produced over the long term do not pose a risk to breeding, deaths, or growth of CRS' either low or higher grades. I've falsified this claim. So have others.

This represents the "control" since no effect was observed in at least a few cases.

"-rain" on the TPT did this about 2 years ago, she had far more CRS's than mine and a few higher grades, but we both know that we will get higher production and better culling in bare bottom tanks.
Any breeder knows this. I do not argue this point and never did.

These are the facts, folks use EI and have no issues and produce high grades.
This is the same exact logic and principle of falsification is no different than the claim about PO4 = algae. Folks dose PO4 to 2-5ppm and get no algae. Thus it(algae is induced by PO4) cannot be directly to excess PO4 ppm's. Now some might have high PO4 and algae, but others do not. Correlation does not imply cause however. They could have algae due to CO2, too much light, 101 reasons, same deal with not being able to produce high grades in an EI dosed tank.

This means that some other alternative reason must be the reason for algae, since there's no evidence that PO4 in and of itself induces algae.
We can also apply this same logic to NO3 ppm and fish or shrimp, or algae.
Or Fe/traces.........

It does not say what causes algae, only what does not cause algae.

This tank is dosed 5ppm 3x a week PO4 from KH2PO4:

No algae.

If you disagree with the CRS test, then you MUST disagree with the PO4= algae, and all the rest, because they are based exactly on the same type of hypothesis test.
My question is specific, it does not ask what kills CRS either low or higher grades.
It asks if EI and a higher tech CO2 enriched tank has any observable adverse effect over the long term on CRS's A through SS.

If EI or CO2 alone is the cause and direct, we should see in all cases, deaths, lack of breeding and other negative impacts.
So how is this possible then?

Do we really need to really limit plant horticulture with high or low grade CRS's?
Not based on the evidence I've show. I've shown that I can produce high grades in a planted EI tank.
The fact remains I've done it.

You are going after me personally, not the test nor the logic behind it, that is always a weak position. Msnikkistar also tried in vain to go after me personally rather than the debate the merits. If either of you wish to debate the topic, then do so. The personal BS?? Leave it out.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[onefang]

Ok, lets get a few things straight. I was not going after you personally, neither was nikki. The fact that you are strait up calling me a weak debater, IS a personal attack. Directing negativity in a debate is a sign of insecurity, and lack of confidence(see how that feels?). Your comments are extremely passive aggressive, and totally unhelpful.

I simply want to know, at what range, and what component specifically, can induce shrimp death/breeding failure(if at all). Is there a difference between the mid grade shrimp and the higher grades as far as resilience while in this environment? Do you keep a non EI dosed tank full of these specific shrimp that we can use as a control? I am just playing the devils advocate here. I honestly do not care whether you are right or not, I just want factual data, not a bunch of blury pictures and snarky comments. Put your money where you mouth is, and buy a few SSS+ Mosura, and test different levels of ferts on them and observe their behavior.
If you're going to claim that this is truth, then prove it with actual scientific method. In your colorful words, shut up or put up.
I could put some pictures up that showed insane plant growth, and say that I used a method totally different from EI. I am sure that you would want some actual data beyond my pictures/claims to prove that this was true.

 

[CL_]

There is a difference between being a weak debater and supporting a weak side of debate, though they do tend to go hand-in-hand. Tom wasn't saying what does induce shrimp death/ sexual disfunction, he was just saying what doesn't, as he sated.

 

[onefang]

There is a difference between being a weak debater and supporting a weak side of debate, though they do tend to go hand-in-hand. Tom wasn't saying what does induce shrimp death/ sexual disfunction, he was just saying what doesn't, as he sated.

I am not supporting any side. I could very well say that cake flour doesn't harm pine trees. I could test it by dumping what I deem to be acceptable levels of the stuff around the trunk of the tree. If the tree doesn't die, or stop producing cones, it doesn't harm the tree by this logic. However, have we checked cone size/yield? Have we tested this on all Coniferous trees? Just because it seems to have no effect in a totally unscientific test, does not mean that it has any relation to truth.

By the way.. your little Einstein reference? This sound familiar?

I've been around long enough that I've seen your answers and theories change over time, often conflicting with what you claimed earlier. What has remained constant is that you always represent yourself as infallible.

Even Einstein admitted that a single experiment could invalidate all his theories.

This is really true.. Any time someone mentions EI in a negative light, you present yourself like God to a feeble Jobian aquaculture..."Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?"
Complete and utter nonsense.

 

[CL_]

Why question EI if it has been tested by more than qualified scientists and proven to work? Sure it may give you some self- assurance which is good, but depending on your test results, you may need to test again. If you were testing the effects of gravity on mass and you concluded that a feather falls slower than a bowling ball, you would not question gravity, but the test.

Wouldn't a person claiming false points about gravity lose all/ most credibility when engaging in any other debate?

 

[Msnikkistar]

Ok, so let's put the argument to rest.

I personally do not have the funding to do this, nor the equipment necessary to do this as Mr. Barr does. So it will rest on his shoulders to do it.

I want to see two tanks set up exactly the same way with the following

1. RCS and SS-SSS grade CRS/CBS: Test if cheap and expensive shrimp are affected.
2. 75% RO/DI water to 25% Aged Tap water:. GH would be 3-4 degrees maximally.
3. Plants: Any
4. Temperature: 68-72F

One tank should be EI dosed, and the other should not. This would be the only way someone could get definite results to see if EI dosing affects shrimp reproduction or not. If I am wrong, I will fully admit it.

As a matter of fact, I am tempted to do this test on a tank with RCS only myself.

 

[onefang]

Why question EI if it has been tested by more than qualified scientists and proven to work? Sure it may give you some self- assurance which is good, but depending on your test results, you may need to test again. If you were testing the effects of gravity on mass and you concluded that a feather falls slower than a bowling ball, you would not question gravity, but the test.

Wouldn't a person claiming false points about gravity lose all/ most credibility when engaging in any other debate?

In a vacuum, there would be no problem with this test. You proved my point for me. Unless you exhaust all the possibilities when testing, you haven't really gotten all the data you need to prove anything. Or say anything. To understand why a feather falls slower in the open atmosphere, you have to understand drag, and so on. You have to test everything, otherwise you are right.. you have no proof to back up your findings, and your "proof" has no credibility. Like I said, I really don't care one way or the other, I just think that you should practice what you preach. Do and then talk about it. No do, no talk, right Tom? So you shouldn't be telling high grade shrimp keepers to go whole hog EI dosing, if you haven't tested the limits. Not unless they know a "safe" range for each component, and for each species, etc.
Even extensive testing doesn't make it infallible. The fact of the matter is that there may be potential dangers to specific species, if you are loading the water column with levels of nutrients that aren't found in their natural habitat. This danger can be multiplied with species that have been selectively bred/inbred for whatever purposes. Kind of like how some German shepherds are susceptible to hip dysplasia, and some are not. The only way that this can be confirmed safe, is by testing the limits of it's safety.. that's why they crash test cars.

 

[CL_]

In a vacuum, there would be no problem with this test. You proved my point for me. Unless you exhaust all the possibilities when testing, you haven't really gotten all the data you need to prove anything. Or say anything. To understand why a feather falls slower in the open atmosphere, you have to understand drag, and so on. You have to test everything, otherwise you are right.. you have no proof to back up your findings, and your "proof" has no credibility.

I can't even follow what you are trying to say here. How does this prove your point for you?
Needless to say, this discussion has changed from keeping shrimp in a tank with happy and healthy plants from E.I. to people trying to prove their point, and personally I have no point to prove here. No personal agenda to fulfill. Have fun.

 

[gmccreedy]

Just to add,

No moderators contacted me about any personal attacks on you as a person. I approached Sewingalot as a matter of fact, to ask her if I "personally" attacked you, and she felt that I did not. She closed the thread due to the last post, not because I said anything that was deemed inappropriate.

I do not believe this statement is 100% accurate.

 

[onefang]

I can't even follow what you are trying to say here. How does this prove your point for you?
Needless to say, this discussion has changed from keeping shrimp in a tank with happy and healthy plants from E.I. to people trying to prove their point, and personally I have no point to prove here. No personal agenda to fulfill. Have fun.

The discussion has always been about balancing shrimp with plants, and whether it's possible to have optimal conditions for both. I don't know how many times I can say that I have no personal agenda, aside from factual information.

 

[onefang]

Actually, I am going to take my leave here, since no one can answer any questions and I don't want to be a troll.
The reason that this frys my bacon, is that you can have significant plant growth without risking shrimp health or breeding, using methods other than EI dosing. You, apparently, can not tell anyone that this is possible, or warn others of unknown potential dangers without having someone jump up your behind and call you a "fear monger", and your methods "draconian".
If it works, and a large majority of high end shrimp breeders do it to obtain good yield, then it's use is just as valid as Tom's.
What I'd like to see, is a humble answer. If you don't know what levels of ferts will kill shrimp(and haven't tested it on the higher grades), don't hokey pokey around it with some drawn out 1000+ word dissertation about how idiotic the common shrimp keepers are. Just say, "I don't know". I suppose I should go out an buy a scarf and matching gloves, cause it'll be a pretty cold day in hell when Tom Barr says those words.
Yeah, that's a personal attack.
Hey Mod.. feel free to remove my account or ban me. I have no further interest in this discussion, or taking part in a forum devoted to hanging on it's namesake's every word.

 

[Tom Barr]

I am no expert on the matter, but I know what I do with my shrimp works.

I think here is where the assumption process has went afoul. I've never stated what you do or what others do is wrong, only why you claim it is. And it's not even really your claim, it's those of others. The general dogma.

I have more experience, as do others with dosing ferts and keeping and breeding shrimp. I've already had a couple of years experience keeping and breeding CRS's at the lower grades. So there was little risk posed when I went to the higher grades based on my methods as well as those of others.

This is a gal from Finland's tank full:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/shrimp-other-invertebrates/59684-what-ferts-do-u-put-ur-2.html

Please read the thread post so you get a better understanding of how little folks know about them. Most are just guessing.
Could be the differences in tap water, could be temps(seems to be more correlation here for my test, but I'm not sure, so I say I am not sure). Many things, maybe KH?
Who knows.

Few have bothered to narrow down the choices through falsification.

The argument was about experiences with a person's tank.

No it is not.
It is about why the shrimp do poorly, or are at risk in general, no one was telling anyone that their method for keeping them was wrong.

This is where you went astray, plain and simple, you made this assumption and took it upon yourself.
No one said no feerts was bad for shrimp. I only stated it was not bad for them, there's a big difference and you seem to have really glossed over that difference.

Go back and check please.

I call into question whether there was any real risk either way, not whether the method itself was bad(either). I can qualify this test because I had about 18 month test already with CRS' low grades in an EI dosed tank ALREADY IN THE PAST.

So there was minimal risk associated for me and my experience level.
Next step? Try this on Higher grades since many shrimp folks suggested that the high grades where more sensitive. I posed a a question as to why the higher grades where more sensitve to environmental parameters.

I got no responses
So, since these are artificially inbred bee shrimp, they weaker genetically, much like all in bred lines of animals, I proposed this hypothesis.

We are breeding for traits we like, however, at the expense of the critter's ability to live over a wider range of conditions. To test this hypothesis, I did EI for some time and raised and bred CRS, first with lower grades and then next with higher grades.

The result are the same.
Morally, it is inconsistent to suggest love, caring, ethics while breeding such weakness on purpose, designer shrimps basically. I like mine as well, but I know what I am doing genetically and through breeding, I've breed 100 fish species over 35 years and a few thousand or more shrimp. It is not in the best interest of the shrimp to inbred so much.

So we could outcross with other higher grades, this would help considerable while maintaining the coloration. The same issue is with discus and many other selective bred traits in fish, cats, dogs, cattle crops, etc. Artificial selection.

I used different 4 lines for the higher grade CRS's.

Why?
Because I care.

I simply stated that I have had good results without having to use EI or dry ferts for that matter and that when I researched on how to keep my shrimp, I took the majorities opinion on the matter to not use it.

Ya know? I have never said that was bad or anything. Not once. Nor have I stated that is was not successful. You seem to feel I have, and that is simply not what I said.

What I have said is that there's no risk posed to the shrimp with EI dosing and CO2 and a typically run planted tank using CO2. You claim there is however.

I have challenged you or anyone to support this claim.
Correlation will not cut it.
I've already falsified this claim.

Time to look elsewhere for shrimp problems.
It does not imply that no ferts is a bad method, only that there is no associated risk due solely to ferts when the tank is well run.

Nothing more.

What you want me to do is experiment on creatures that I love as a person would love a dog. I do not want to do that. I feel it is inhumane to "test" or "experiment" on shrimp.

You keep assuming I'm saying more than I have. I am not telling you to do a thing to them.
We have free will to do what we chose. You suggest it is unethical and you love them, but they are test and artificial, by inbreeding them, you are doing "test and "experiments".

If you really care about them or the $(I doubt you do about the $, neither do I), then why not the bare bottom tanks? Go whole hog if you want to stick with a line of reasoning./rational, position.

All I have said is the results, that there is no risk based on ferts alone, there might be other factors, but not ferts over the ppm's ranges I've kept and stated. It does not imply you must go out and try it, you can if you want or not. You have free will and will chose to do it or not all on your own.

I hope you figure out this part out.

And if what works for me, does work, then why should I have to change it?

Err, to learn?
To see if there is an easier or better way?
Because you care about all the needs of the plants, the fish and the shrimp?
You care about the entire ecosystem rather than just one part?

Amano said healthy plants = healthy fish. I think this was among his wisest observations.
I've found it to be true with shrimp and all fish.

Because you say so?

I've never said you should, I only said that higher grades are not more sensitive than lower grades to EI/ferts.

It does not imply any suggestion that you are wrong and the method you or others used should be scrapped. Only that for ferts, there is not the risk claimed when the other parameters are truly independent.

Newbies likely should not due to risk with CO2 and tap water, general plant care issues.
Folks kill fish and louse up tanks, planted or otherwise all the time due to neglect or lack of experience.

Stuff happens and Murphy's law applies:gw

regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Tom Barr]

It continues:

Because you say I am "fearful"? No, it is because I found a balance that WORKS for ME without having to use your methods.

You keep making this assumption over and over again.
I simply said there is no risk due to ferts alone in a well managed planted tank.
Same is true for fish and other shrimp.

I never said you should do this or try this method.
Only that it does work and that it does falsify the claims.
These claims are not even your claims for that matter
They are the general dogma in the shrimp groups.

This same conversation occurred years ago in the Discus zealots.
I fully agreed then, as do with CRS's, that bare bottom tanks and over feeding will produce higher yields and larger/faster rates of growth, no doubt, but in planted tanks where the asethetics of the tank are of high importance, we chose to accept slower rates of growth, less brood production.
I also suggested that 82-84F was fine vs 86-88F. I bred blue Diamonds, client's bred wild Discus at 82-84F and at a CO2 of 40ppm, and EI dosing.

Enough said.
If you are specifically breeding, then sure, go with bare bottom tanks and frequent water changes every day or every other day etc.

But there are trade offs any time you start adding other variables, like plants etc.

Regardless if the shrimp is $.50 or $30 per, I don't care.

I agree.

I wouldn't "test" or "experiment" on any of them.

I guest artificial inbreeding is not a test or an experiment then?

What you want me to do is say you are right? No, I am not going to say that.

I'm not asking you to say that, only look at the results and make your own conclusion.
This is the same for any and everyone, they come to the conclusions themselves.
Ask Rain also. Maybe buy some of her shrimp biscuits, or make your own.
I have some great shrimp pellets without MSG in them.
Fish love them too.

As I am not going to say you are wrong.

Oh please..........you hang yourself with this guise of fair play.
You stated that I should not be giving advice to aquarist about shrimp.

That pretty clearly contradicts what you just stated.

What it boils down to is what the INDIVIDUAL is comfortable doing.

I agree 100%.
But if you do not know...........how can you be comfy in doing something???
Anything new is going to be uncertain and uncomfortable.
New folks should start off on the safe side, most of us do that anyway, sort of common sense.

I've never said otherwise.

I would rather be SURE that my shrimp have the best bet at surviving, and not "test" to see if they could or couldn't die. End of story. That is all.

Inconsistencies abound:
1. So why have plants at all? Why not bare bottom tanks only?

2. Why not go after folks who dose CO2? It is the no#1 killer and fish and shrimp in planted tanks.
Adding CO2 increases the respiration rates thus adds stress to livestock. Folks often gas their fish but manage to save the fish and seem to alwatys lose a few shrimp or all of the shrimp.
This suggest that shrimp are more sensitive to CO2 than many fish.
So why not poo poo CO2 with the same zeal that nutrients are???

3. Indirectly light since it drives CO2 demand which in turn means more must be added as more light is used.

4. Do you care about all critters and plants equally, or just somethings you pick and chose? Is all life equally important?

5. I have prior qualifying experience and success with lower grades, I found no risk and have increase in the population over time. So there was much less risk that you seem to suggest in my test. I've done this a long time, and watch, so I'm pretty good at it, you never have done this. So.....we are not exactly equal in experience and skill levels.

6. Excel dosing. Many use this with shrimp and yet we have a pretty specific study looking at invert toxicity:

http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2005/20050003.pdf

Very low ppm's are highly toxic, why not go after this with the same zeal as say NO3?

You are arguing for me to test and see what happens, and I am not going to do that, be it fear or just safety of an animal I love and care for.

I'm not, I offered you to come by and see the test in progress for yourself.
I'm glad you care deeply for the livestock, many do not.
But with love/caring, comes fear also, I'm no different.

I have Zebra 046L plecos.
I also dose, but it is a non CO2 ADA 60p tank.
I know CO2 is more lethal and a higher risk, so I chose that rather than ferts.
At 250$ each, and with my skill set, I chose to go without to achieve a different goal.
CRS's can easily go this same route and have..........

As well, I ADMITTED, that I only had easy to care for plants. I would not subject a higher quality plant to the regimen I do. That is unfair to the plant. Which is why I stay away from almost ALL stem plants to begin with.

Wise.
How about floating plants, like say water sprite?
I think this would fit the bill nicely, shrimps love to hang out in the roots.

I find it juvenile that you had to come here to "blast" me, and I think you are now making this a personal matter, when it is a conflict of opinions to begin with.

Oh, the pot calls the kettle black?

The fact that you made this post to begin with, shows how personally you took it.

Oh? Not once but 2x the pot calls the kettle black

I did not start this debate, you took it upon yourself.
I've had this same debate with other shrimp folks going back a couple of years now.
The debate itself is no different, the personal BS you keep adding/denying you add is the only real difference.

This is not a "pee contest" but a difference of opinion when it comes to how one uses their tank.

When you state you love the shrimp more than me, it most certainly is a pee contest about who likes the hobby, the critter more than someone else. This is something you cannot possibly know and it is ridiculous to even suggest it. You can lie and then appeal to a sense of fair play, but that never worked on me before.

Every tank is different. Every individual is different.

Yawn.........tell me something everyone does not already know?

What works for me, doesn't have to work for you.

Never said otherwise.

You can "hate" me if you like,

If you think/write that, then it reflects back on you. I will offer a civil discourse into the issues about the topic of shrimp and their environmental tolerances. Hate never enters into any of this.

but at the end of the day, guess what? It's only the internet.

So why not take your own advice and not take it so personal and instead, debate the actual ppm's and examples? Do as I say, not as I do?

You said hardly nothing about the shrimp curiously.
You offered no test, no risk assessment, no logic based on the risk for other things like tap water, KH, temps, inbreeding/genetics, stepwise risk methods to reduce losses of more desirable grades, just a bunch of poor assumptions about other people. No pictures or examples.........no details. We learn by testing and making mistakes. Not just going with the majority dogma and conformity.

Bottom line: there is a woeful lack of any real constructive input about CRS's on your part.

Which was the original point of the post here to begin with.
Back peddling, avoiding the topic, personal rubbish.
No real discussion about the topic. Is this all you got?


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Msnikkistar]

I do not believe this statement is 100% accurate.

It can be verified.


Tom,

Thank you for the first response. I think that was the first response that I felt there was an actual response to me and not a "talking down to" aspect. I do agree at some point things went afoul, whether it be from me or from you misreading things. I do fully agree that the shrimp have genetic issues due to interbreeding, and I did state that having a bare bottom tank would actually be the optimal way of breeding shrimp. However, my goal isn't necessarily to have a stock pile of just shrimp alone for profit. I am trying to make an artificial ecosystem for my shrimp, with maybe more safety procedures then needs be, but that is what I am comfortable with. What I know is, my BTOE and SSS Mosuras are very susceptible to a wide arrange of issues due to interbreeding that makes them sensitive to almost everything. Heck, I loss some SSS Mosura simply by a fluctuation in temperature that they didn't like.

At this point, there is no real proof to me that EI does or doesn't harm reproduction with shrimp, so I am taking the safe route and not doing it. I understand that you have had good results with your tank, but you are the expert of EI dosing, and there are too many variables for me to try it because well, let's just put it out there, I am not comfortable with having to be so precise with dosages and all the requirements needed to use it. Honestly, don't be offended by this, but EI seems way too complicated to me. I am not comfortable with the thought that it could or couldn't impair my shrimp and it would have been my fault if there was a negative. I never once stated that EI dosing was lethal to them. I just don't know that for myself, and there are other shrimpkeepers that have suggested against the use of EI. Because of that, I have found a different method for maintaining my plants and shrimp that has worked thus far. That is not saying they are right, it is just saying, I am not sure 100% what EI dosing will do presently as there are way too many conflicting theories for my taste.

I am not saying that I will not EI dose later in life when I am more comfortable with it and have actual definite data from multiple sources. It is just saying for now, I am not sure what the affects are on shrimp. There isn't enough proof confirming or denying it, outside of your results and maybe a handful of others. I, for one, would be more comfortable if there were multiple scientific tests done first. Hell, the negative affects from EI may all stem from user error, who knows. It could be that the cat got into the tank at night. Just as you say, too many things that could be coincidental.

As for saying it was bad, you called what some of us shrimpkeepers do as "draconian" in our methods when it came to the care of plants. That in itself, means you are stating that it is bad or maybe it is an assumption on my behalf. I, personally, would never suggest someone wanting to keep higher grade shrimp in keeping some of the beautiful stem plants out there without using some fertilizers. If there are people who do that, then they are draconian, but I have yet to see other serious shrimp keepers do that yet. Whatever it is, it was a bit offensive to me and a few others when you made that comment.

At the end of the day, I think we ended up miss communicating somewhere in the vast wall of text. I wholeheartedly apologize for anything that you would deem a personal attack on you. But honestly, I did not feel I personally attacked you as a person. That is the truth. I just do not feel that it would be a good idea to meet you because I really do not want to argue with you. I am sometimes stubborn and quite frankly, a bitch and don't feel that meeting you would lead to a calm discussion. That was all I was trying to say. That doesn't mean you are a bad person, that just means I am cautious about having any kind of conflict with a person as I have a bad temper. I may have jumped to conclusions with this one, but I am not one to shy away from a contentious argument whomever it be with. What I am trying to say is, I am trying to end all this animosity between us in a civil matter. We can agree to disagree, but I think we digress when we both talk to each other in a condescending manner filled with snarky comments.

P.S. I really don't know anything about fish as I have a total of 2 ottos and 2 dwarf cories. So referencing fish, ends up not applying to my situation. lol However, do you think water sprite would be better then say Azolla or Frogbit as a floater?