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Critique my dosing plan please

Discussion in 'Estimative Index' started by dOGHAIR, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    Hi all, this is all new to me so please let me know if you see anything whacky.
    I think I have an idea of how I want to dose but I'm sure that I could use some help.
    I 'll post the labels I just printed for my two bottles that I want to dose from.
    Chuck's calculator tells me that k2so4 is somewhat insoluble so I chose to mix with it, Kno3 and Kh2po4 at ratios that should dose what I'm shooting for. This means a fairly big dose of this somewhat weak solution.
    I use "Prime" for dechlorination etc and I understand that it neutralizes No3 so I plan on starting the week off with a water change but no No3 until the next day.
    I have 3 tanks that are co2 injected, heavily planted.
    I live in the bay area ca.
    if anyone would like to look at the target levels and let me know if it is common to dose the full amount 3x a week i's appreciate it.
    Please let me know if you see anything glaringly wrong with what I plan.
    Thanks


    Day 1 Saturday;
    50 % water change
    Prime
    Grumpy's Gh booster (5g in 10g raises GH 2 dGH)
    Kh (Baking soda)

    Day 1, 3, 5 Saturday, Monday, Wednesday;
    Plantex CSM +B (Traces and Iron)
    Iron Target; 0.5 - 1.0 ppm
    15.85g in 250ml
    20ml adds .56ppm in 40g
    5ml adds .56ppm in 10g
    1ml adds .56ppm in 2g

    Day 2, 4, 6 Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday;
    K2SO4 (Potassium)
    22.5g in 250ml
    Target; 20ppm
    80ml adds 20ppm in 40g
    20ml adds 20ppm in 10g
    4ml adds 20ppm in 2g

    KNO3 (Nitrate)
    3.8g in 250ml
    Target; 5 - 10ppm
    80ml adds 5ppm in 40g
    20ml adds 5ppm in 10g
    4ml adds 5ppm in 2g

    KH2PO4 (Phosphate) (Do not dose with Iron/Plantex/gh booster)
    0.5g in 250ml
    Target; 1ppm
    80ml in 40g adds 0.9ppm
    20ml in 10g adds 0.9ppm
    4ml in 2g adds 0.9ppm
     
  2. charlie

    charlie Guru Class Expert

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    I`m interested in hearing if there is any fact to this thought

    "I use "Prime" for dechlorination etc and I understand that it neutralizes No3 [/B]so I plan on starting the week off with a water change but no No3 until the next day."
     
  3. Carissa

    Carissa Guru Class Expert

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    From what I've read, Prime will "detoxify" nitrate to make it less toxic to fish, but won't make it unavailable to plants, much the same as it does to ammonia and nitrite. I can't seem to find information on exactly what it converts it to, but it makes sense to me that it cannot actually be removing it from the water. From this quote from Seachem's website, it sounds like they don't even know how it works.

    "Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing Nitrates?
    A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
    I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product."


    Prime FAQ
     
  4. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    Interesting stuff, so dosing kno3 on the same day as a w/c is probably fine?
    Is it preferred for any reason?>
    Since you guys popped in, do you mind looking over what I plan on dosing and telling me what you think. I already have discovered that I got the kno3 target and dose levels a little low.
    I do need to add the weekly target level to my labels now I have a sense from one of Tom's posts.
     
  5. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    I have another question too...
    Some people dump all their ferts in once a week, correct?
    I'm wondering about the issue with mixing Iron and kh2po4 is it more so in the bottle that it's an issue or always an issue? If it's an issue in the tank then how long apart do doses of Iron and kh2po4 need to be (to be safe)
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    No, folks do not add all their ferts just 1x a week, 2-x is a min for low light tanks, maybe 1x a week with a real low light tank.

    The amount dosed is the same, just the frequency goes to about 3x a week under high light/CO2.

    You can also do a daily EI type routine, much like the old days of PMDD.
    See the thread here "Want a daily routine, PMDD + PO4" etc.

    Instead of 3x a week, you do daily but instead of dividing the total weekly dose by 3, you divide by 7.

    You are already doing liquid solution dosing, and you likely feed the fish daily, so you can do the same for the plant ferts.

    This works pretty good and can tweak, finesses a tank.
    But the trade off is daily dosing.
    Some are good with that, some are not.

    Mostly a question of your own habits, not the method itself.

    You still do the weekly water changes.
    If you dose say 20ppm of NO3 per week, you still have a max build up of 40ppm if you assume no uptake or export other than water changes.

    Does not matter how frequently you dose.

    Most just make a macro fert and micro fert liquid mix.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  7. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    I appreciate the input.
    I do get confused with the statement;
    "You still do the weekly water changes.
    If you dose say 20ppm of NO3 per week, you still have a max build up of 40ppm if you assume no uptake or export other than water changes."


    If you assume no uptake or export then aren't you adding an additional 10 ppm per week?
    I am assuming uptake so this is just for clarification.
    What is considered a danger level of No3 for fish?

    "Instead of 3x a week, you do daily but instead of dividing the total weekly dose by 3, you divide by 7."
    "Does not matter how frequently you dose.
    Most just make a macro fert and micro fert liquid mix."


    Micro is traces (including iron) correct?
    What I proposed I do ends up with 6 doses a week, iron (traces?) on alternate days to macros(?)
    As long as I alternate micro days and macro days and shoot for at or below weekly max levels I'm going in the right direction?

    "No, folks do not add all their ferts just 1x a week, 2-x is a min for low light tanks, maybe 1x a week with a real low light tank."


    By 2x min, do you mean the full weekly dose of macros on one day and the full dose of traces on another?
    It seems to me that you can put more ferts in a tank if you dose more frequently since the plants eat some up. This is a reason to do so?
    I know I might be sounding redundant, I need to roll things around before they sink in.
    thanks
     
  8. orion2001

    orion2001 Guru Class Expert

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    Hey there. Check this thread out:
    http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/4147-simple-formula-calculate-maximum-error-term-ei.html

    It explains how the maximum nutrient level will actually plateau out if you follow a weekly regimen of X% water changes. It might seem a little non-intuitive, but what you have to remember is that on the second 50% water change you actually remove half of the 30ppm that is now built up, so you remove 15ppm...the next WC you remove half of 35ppm...and so on, and it would reach a maximum of 40ppm over time. So it won;t ever build up to toxic levels if you stick to the weekly/every other week water change regimen.

    Correct, you should shoot for your weekly levels...say if you shoot for 20ppm Nitrates, then make a mixture which would add 20ppm nitrate if fully dosed into the tank. Now if you want to do daily doses, divide it into 7 equal parts. If 3x a week, then divide it into 3 parts and dose it every other day. Same goes for traces (which includes Fe). From what I've read, you can dose traces and macros on the same day too, just pour them into opposite ends of the tank. That allows you to dose both macros and micros every day so that you don't have to keep track of which day is for macros and which for micros.

    Also, you shouldn;t really overdose just because you are dosing more frequently. The idea behind dosing atleast 2x-3x a week if not more frequently is to keep the nutrient levels roughly uniform and not have weekly spikes which might lead to spikey trends in plant growth as opposed to a uniform trend in plant growth with a steady supply of nutrients. The former case might be a good environment for algae outbreaks.

    I hope that clears things out for you.

    Cheers
     
  9. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    aha!
    Thanks so much
    I just received a needed lesson in mathematics:rolleyes:
    The point about not spiking the levels is well received also, good sense.
    Talking of algae;
    I have spyrogyra in my 2 gal
    I had contaminated my 10 gal with it as well although it was never as successful in that tank. Recently we had a little heat spell and the tanks temps all raised to about 84 degrees. During that day or that night the syprogyra was completely gone from the 10 gal tank!
    I have only received my dry ferts since this happened and had been sporadically dosing ADA "brighty k" and API "leaf zone" so I don't think I had much of a nutrient balance going on. Jim at Albany Aquarium suggested that the higher temp may have limited oxygen and killed off the algae. Higher temps would have also dropped my co2 saturation. It's never considered that high co2 contributes to algae right? So that is probably a non factor.
    I've been seeking out info on spyrogyra for weeks and I can't find much other than to blackout and/or reduce light duration (which I've done)
    It is still thriving in my 2 gal so I don't know why it disappeared in the 10 gal, not that I'm complaining about that.
    Has anyone got any ideas about destroying this evil spaghetti?
    I really appreciate the awesome help on the fert questions
    thanks
     
  10. orion2001

    orion2001 Guru Class Expert

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    Hey there, Glad to know that it helped you figure things out. As for Algae, I don't know much myself. Heck I don't even have much of a planted tank yet...I'm still in the process of setting up my very first planted tank :). Anyways, regarding the algae, this is the info I found on Dusko Bojic's excellent algae article:

    Aquarium Algae ID (updated)

    "This non-branching green filamentous algae is called Spirogyra. This algae doesn't appear in polluted water systems but in ones that are eutrophic, rich in nutrients (liquid ferts, CO2 and light).
    It grows very fast, forming long, entangled strands. I would personally call this one the "spaghetti algae" :) , the way it look to me. I am not sure algae eaters will eat Spirogyra. This aquarium of mine has Otocinclus and Neritina Zebra snail, and they are not showing any interest in eating it.
    I have removed this algae manually, very easy really.
    None of my plants are showing deficiency symptoms. I wouldn't say that some of the nutrients were missing, but rather they were overdosed. In this case I didn't do water change in more that a month, but did continue dosing liquid carbon every week.

    There is one problem I have caused (I assume). Since the beginning of this set-up I have used the Estimative Index fertilising regime, dosing 2/3 times a week N,P,K, traces and liquid Carbon (Easy Carbo).
    But instead of performing 50% weekly water change, I did only 25% weekly (and sometimes every second week). After some time the system was so rich in nutrients favoring this sort of algae. Lesson learned. Reset the system with large (weekly) water changes, always."

    Does that help? Do you think you could have been over dosing nutrients and not doing enough water changes? If not, I have no other ideas. Maybe some of the more experienced members who have had this problem might be able to give you their own experience with Spyrogira.

    Cheers
     
  11. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    It is against my nature but I am doing lots of water changes in these new setups.
    Using aquasoil now I saw lots of cloudiness, then what looked like green water, but daily changes for the first week, then every few days for a couple of weeks got things going nicely. I was fairly sparse on the dosing at first, but like I said, I didn't dose a balanced diet to the tank.
    I have kept fw fish for almost 30 years but I have learned the things I should have known all along in the last 2 months since I got way back into it. It used to be that every time I did a water change I killed fish so I stopped doing them.
    I had my 40 gallon going for 3 years without a water change! With 90w cf and lots of java fern and anubias it wasn't until my light broke and then the filter died that I started to see fish die again. I feel bad that I didn't understand a lot of the issues I was experiencing (new tank syndrome mostly)
    I now see that huge water changes are not a bad thing, but keeping a balance of lights/co2/water changes etc are very important.
    The internet is responsible for my tanks doing relatively well now, and all you helpful peeps.
    I find that article every time I search for spyrogyra, their comment about it being easy to remove manually is only half the story... it's really easy to remove a lot of it EVERY 2 days! ... it will grow back. (except when it mysteriously disappears overnight:confused: )
    I have a feeling that spyrogyra thrives in similar conditions to plants but since I have only been dosing a more complete fert diet for a few days I won't know for a while whether the plants will take off and out compete the spyrogyra into extinction or if it will do even better as well.
    Let's see if I can get a couple of pics up, just for fun.
    This is my 3 gal shrimp and oto tank, I've been saying 2 gallons but it was for simplicity of math for my fert routine.

    The first one is a couple of weeks ago, the rotala is looking iron starved (afaik)and there's a small dose of spyrogyra a little off center at the top.

    pic 02 "she seems happy though"

    pic 03 oh yeah, my 3 gal is also home to very cool freshwater limpets, they are about 3-4mm long (tiny) I have a video clip of one of them eating, which they constantly do, just grazing away. Very cute.

    04 "my artsy spaghetti"

    05 "spaghetti con bearded stick"
    Enjoy :D
    edit; since I was referring to the pics by the file name I gave them but not the order in which I uploaded them, they are out of order. Switch 3 and 4's description.

    3_gal_01.jpg

    3_gal_02.jpg

    3_gal_04.jpg

    3_gal_03.jpg

    3_gal_05.jpg
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    you may get rid of most of the SG by doing a 2-3 days blackout+ water changes, no CO2, Excel additions etc.

    Then restore the parameters, light, CO2 and try and get it all before you do the blackout and nail anything you see during and after.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  13. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    Thanks tom, I'll give it a try soon.
    btw, I came across an entry for an AGA competition (was that it?) by you where your "mystery plant" (or something) was mentioned.
    Either I came across it later or Jim at Albany Aquarium, who knows you I believe, told me, that it was a shorter dwarf hairgrass. Is this all true? Has it been long enough that the shorter stuff is out in stores now or do I have this all wrong?
    My hairgrass is doing well in my 3g and 10 g. In the 10 the longest pieces are 4" but from the same pot that I bought growing emersed I believe at Aqua forest aquarium in San Fransisco, it's growing only about 2 1/2 inches tall in my 3 gallon.
    I like it in both tanks. If theres any way to get an even shorter type that would be cool.
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    It's the same short stuff.

    Folks rattle on about one being short etc, but if you mow it, then it stays real short, just like your lawn.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  15. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    I was going to say that I had trimmed it a couple of times in my 3 gal, it's been a couple of weeks and it seems to grow back slower in that tank so I almost forgot.
    So I didn't see you blogging about a "secret plant" (or something) for an AGA entry?
     
  16. dOGHAIR

    dOGHAIR Junior Poster

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    ...I was mixing you up with someone else...
    I went at the spyrogyra by removing hardscape and some plants and doing a 2 minute dip for plants in 20:1 bleach solution, heavy removal of threads and doing a partial black out (4 days with just ambient light)
    I did a few water changes and didn't dose.
    All my plants have taken a hit but seem to be recovering since I have gone back to normal. I still have spyrogyra present but not anywhere near the scale and growth as before, time will tell.
    It was time for me to remix my ferts and so I revisited my weights and measures and saw that I think I was way high on a lot of things.
    I decided to change my ratios to try to use up all my plantex in one weak as I was seeing some kind of coagulation after a time.
    My goal has been to have these two bottles to dose from and I usually see EI doses listed in teaspoon measures so I've had to try to convert to grams.
    Using Rex's ferts and Chuck's calculator and recommended EI fert levels I crunched a lot of numbers to come up with dosing levels for different volumes of tanks.
    My main change has been to divide the target levels by the three per week dose schedule per bottle. I was probably dosing three times the amount needed with what I had previously posted.
    If anyone would take the time to look this over it would be appreciated.
    thanks.

    Day 1 Saturday;
    50 % water change, Prime.
    Grumpy's Gh booster (5g in 10g raises GH 2 dGH adds 0.15 ppm Iron,
    0.07 ppm Manganese, 27 ppm Potassium, 26.6 ppm Calcium, 12 ppm Magnesium.)
    Magnesium Target 5 - 10 ppm

    Kh (Baking soda) (Sodium bicarbonate NaHCO3)
    KH keep at or above 4.5 DH / 80 ppm to keep pH from becoming acidic.
    Buffer to 7dh to keep KH above 4dh by the next weekly partial water change.
    4 grams in 10 us gallons raises KH by 4dkh

    Bottle "A"
    Day 1, 3, 5 Saturday, Monday, Wednesday;

    Plantex CSM +B (Traces and Iron)
    Iron Target; 0.5 - 1.0 ppm per week
    31.71g in 500ml. (1ml adds 0.11 ppm in 10g)
    500 ml /31.71g x 0.43 is 215 ml /13.64g (1ml adds 0.11 ppm in 10g)
    3.4g in 215 ml (1ml adds 0.0275 ppm in 10g)
    40ml adds 0.275 ppm in 40g
    20ml adds 0.275 ppm in 20g
    10ml adds 0.275 ppm in 10g
    2ml adds 0.275 ppm in 2g
    Total 0.825 ppm per week

    Bottle "B"
    Day 2, 4, 6 Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday;

    K2SO4 (Potassium) Some say it's not needed, also Gh booster adds a lot.
    10g in 250ml
    Target; 15 to 20ppm per week
    20ml adds 2.35 ppm (plus 1.85 ppm from Kno3) in 40g
    10ml adds 2.35 ppm (plus 1.85 ppm from Kno3) in 20g
    5ml adds 2.35 ppm (plus 1.85 ppm from Kno3) in 10g
    1ml adds 2.35 ppm (plus 1.85 ppm from Kno3) in 2g
    Total 12.6 ppm per week

    KNO3 (Nitrate/Gh Booster also adds potassium. See above)
    9g in 250ml
    Target; 5 - 10 ppm per week
    20ml adds 2.9 ppm in 40g
    10ml adds 2.9 ppm in 20g
    5ml adds 2.9 ppm in 10g
    1ml adds 2.9 ppm in 2g
    Total 8.7 ppm per week

    KH2PO4 (Phosphate) (Do not dose with Iron/Plantex/Gh booster)
    1g in 250ml
    Target; 1 - 2 ppm per week
    20ml adds 0.35 ppm in 40g
    10ml adds 0.35 ppm in 20g
    5ml adds 0.35 ppm in 10g
    1ml adds 0.35 ppm in 2g
    Total 1.05 ppm per week
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Seems complicated when you post it, however, we both know addign a bit of bottle A and B is not hard once you set the amounts needed up for whatever target level you want.

    Water changes are your friend.
    You cannot over do those........
    And with ADA AS, you better plan on doing many for the first few weeks.

    It's good stuff, but varies batch to batch, bag to bag.
    And it can leach a lot.

    So the water changes deals with that.

    I like the dry start method personally, gets around a lot of initial set up work with ADA AS. Cycling is important to new tanks, so adding zeolite, mulm, purigen, carbon, mature filter sponges, old dirty tank water from another tank etc, + large frequent water changes helps a lot. The dry start cycles the sediment, so that + the above takes care of everything else.

    Careful, not to over complicate things, look at the big picture: light, CO2 and nutrients, prune often.

    Then look at the basics of aquarium keeping: water changes, clean the filter, good flow/current, feed fish well and a variety.
    You do this, the science and all the rest really do not matter too much.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
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