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    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
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couldn't resist

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by tedr108, Sep 4, 2008.

  1. tedr108

    tedr108 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Not that I could really afford it, but I just ordered an Apogee Quantum Meter w/ separate sensor (calibrated for electric lights). :rolleyes:

    When I had only a high light tank, I felt confident enough to see how things were doing by watching plant growth. With the fairly fast feedback on high light tanks, I could get adjustments right. My high light tank always does well, and I have very little algae (thread mostly), usually almost nil. Now that I'm setting up a couple of low light tanks, I did not feel confident and decided I needed to get the lighting right -- it has a little to do with patience, I'm sure. I guess I was due to buy a gadget anyway -- it's been a while.

    Tom has mentioned in some threads the required micro moles for low light to high light tanks. That will come in handy.

    With shipping, the price was $258, by the way.
     
  2. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Thank you!! I hope you will share any data you get with that unit. The whole subject of lighting is very interesting.
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, now you can share it with the SCAPE club there.
    Or rent it out:)

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  4. tedr108

    tedr108 Lifetime Charter Member
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    I already have one taker... :)
     
  5. tedr108

    tedr108 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Got my Apogee Quantum (PPF) Meter today and played around with it a little -- very easy to use.

    I'll post some more scientific results later, but one interesting fact I found today... My largest non-CO2 tank was only 20 to 25 micro moles at the substrate level -- the reading really should be 30 - 40 micro moles at the substrate level for a non-CO2, according to Tom. I was bummed, of course -- it's just barely under-lit. Buy a whole new lamp just for 5 or 10 micro moles? Or, change my setup and lower the lamp or add more substrate. Yuk. Then, I decided to try opening the shades. No direct light coming in, but the indirect light from the sun actually pumped up my micro moles by 10! Indirect light comes in that window year-round, so it may be an option for me. I hope one of you isn't going to say that indirect sunlight produces algae. :)

    More later...
     
  6. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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  7. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Did you try raising the sensor and watching to see how high you had to raise it to get the light you want? You may find it only takes less than an inch. If you don't have a carpet of low plants it won't matter if the light intensity is that low at the substrate.
     
  8. tedr108

    tedr108 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Gerry,

    I bought the QMSS-E (the $249 version, E = electronic lights, rather than S for sun). This is the one with the sensor on a long wire, rather than attached to the instrument itself (the $199 version). The good thing about the separate sensor version is that the sensor and wire are waterproof and can be placed in a tank with water.

    For me, the meter was worth it for peace of mind, especially when I got to lower light tanks. Knowing that the lighting is good removes one of the biggest variables in getting your tank set up the way you want. Using this instrument, I've even realized that on my EI tank I had really high light with my PC lights -- it's no wonder that I found keeping up with the pruning just too demanding. (I'm not overly impressed with the wpg rule at this point. :)) Lately, I've been transitioning over to all non-CO2 tanks, but I'll probably give EI a try again later, but with much lower light!

    The thing is, this meter is a lot of money for something many people would only use to get a tank set up right with good lighting and then probably never use it again for that particular tank, unless they made some changes. If we lived near each other, I'd let you borrow mine and save the money!

    By the way, Apogee sells a little platform to attach the sensor to while testing. I did not buy this since it is something like $25. I will say that it is a pain in the rear keeping the sensor upright without it, however. I've just been keeping one arm in the tank holding the sensor upright during testing. I think I'm going to cut a little acrylic piece to help out with this.

    Hoppy,

    I do not have MH lights, only PCs and some sort of T5s. It's like you said in another post, the full length lights (like T5s) do not change intensity in the tank near as much with changes in distance from the water like MHs do.

    I'm still waiting on my substrate for my new 29G non-CO2 tank. I've been kind of waiting on that before I get too serious about scientifically testing out the lighting. In playing around with the Apogee, my initial observations are that raising the light an inch just cost me a few mic moles at the substrate level -- which was over 10%. Future observations may very well prove that wrong. Right now, it's looking like my setup will be right at the minimum of 25 micro moles at the substrate -- I can live with that.
     
  9. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Ted,

    Thanks for the reply.

    Understood that it is not something that will be used often....

    Yes, I planned on getting the E model with the remote sensor.

    I do have MH and can raise/lower easily, so would like to know how much each adjustment actually affects the light at various levels. It would be worth the $ to know this info. I also would like to do the same for my non-c02 low light (normal flouro) tank.

    Yes, it would be easier if all of us lived in the same area lol.

    I think I will bite the bullet and get one. I have spent far more $ on stuff that didn't get me as much:rolleyes:

    I will get the platform as another $25 doesn't seem too much more.

    I will advise on my measurements/adjustments once I get it and play around a bit.

    Thanks again.
     
  10. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Just as a brainstorm: would it be practical to have a "lending library" operation where the tools/kits/etc. being loaned out went by mail and back again? The cost per borrowing would be the postage both ways, plus maybe a small sum to pay for the drive to the post office, etc.

    I don't want to do it myself, but if someone wanted to set up such an operation it would be terrific!
     
  11. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi Vaughn,

    I think it is a good idea and could work. I would participate and help in any way I could from here..........When I get the PAR meter (which I just ordered and expect in about 7-14 days), I would be willing to lend it out once I get my readings of course :)

    May I suggest the following starting guidelines? This is just off the top of my head and in no specific order. Brainstorming session:

    1. Devices will go to one person at a time FROM the owner and be delivered back to the owner. NO subletting of the device should occur.

    2. The OWNER of the device may suspend rule #1 if they so desire. For example if a club borrows it and it is known that several folks may take it home for 1 night eahc say, to conduct their own measurements. This should be approved in advance.

    3. The borrower of the device pays for shipping both ways. I would say that normal USPS would serve for most as they do not weigh much.

    4. The duration for the 'borrow' is dictated by the owner and should include shipping time. May I recommend a 1-2 week limit to start? This should enable sufficient shipping and allow for enough time for ample testing and observation.

    5. The owner can decide if insurance should be purchased for the shipping. This may be a good general rule regardless. I know it is more expense, but it is still much less than paying for a device yourself :)

    6. If Tom allows, we could start a sticky where owners can post devices and who currently has the device and the current status, such as whether it is in-transit or 'home' or 'away'.

    A simple spreadsheet maybe that lists the device, owner, borrower, delivery dates, and current status of the device. E.g, in-transit to owner or lender, received, in-use, etc. This will enable us all to keep track of these things as it is a community idea and all borrowers will have a stake in this. I can make one up easily.

    7. Usage fees if any are up to the discretion of the owner. May I suggest a small donation anyway, to help offset the cost and demonstate goodwill? It is easy enough to find out the cost of the device, and then figure out how much it was worth to the borrower not to have to buy the device. E.g, I would pay good money for Tom's c02 in-situ meter lol

    8. The borrower of the device is responsible for any damage to the device whether accidental or not. I know this may cause some concern that those that cannot afford to replace a device would not be able to borrow it, but it doesn't seem fair to make the lender purchase a new one either. I wouldn't want to replace Tom's meter, but that is what should and would happen.

    9. Lenders may opt out of the program at any time.

    10. Lenders may recall a device and the borrower should relinquish it promptly and with courtesy. No reason should be required or expected from the owner. These requests should also be made with courtesy.

    11. We may want to exclude international and keep it to the country of origin, but again, that is up to the lender. Additional ship time must be added to the duration to account for this.

    Personal honesty and integrity will play a critical role in this, as very few of us are known to each other personally. I know there are some of you that know each other, but I would think that most would not. However, I do not know the truth of this statement.

    Okay that is all I have right now.

    Thoughts?
     
  12. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    The thing I stumble over is how to protect the owner of the device from someone who steals it. In a normal tool rental business you leave a credit card slip all signed and ready to be submiitted by the business for the full cost of the tool if you try to steal it. One obvious way to do that is to pay the full price to get the device, and get the difference refunded when you return it. But, that leaves the person "renting" the device at risk of being cheated by the device owner.

    Insurance when mailing would seem to be mandatory for this to work at all.

    I haven't done any playing with the numbers, so I don't yet know if the two way shipping cost plus insurance both ways plus a nominal few dollars fee would be an economical deal or not. But, I do think this is worth someone doing more thinking about it. Priority mail with $400 insurance is about $11 one way, $22 roundtrip + $10 fee=$32. Would a number like that be tempting to many people?

    Also, of course, Tom might find the liability involved would preclude him from allowing such activity here. Only Tom could decide that.
     
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