Continuing Issues with Cardinal Tetras

[Charles Crews]

I have had issues with keeping cardinal tetras for sometime now. This past weekend I bought 10 at the LFS here in Houston, I'm down to 5 now. That being said, I have had one in my tank for nearly a year now. I always buy them in fairly large batches but they seem to slowly die off, I gave up on them for a while but really want a handful in my planted tank.

I put them all in the tank on Saturday, everyone was fine and happy, even saw them eat. The next morning I went from 11 to 7, this morning I went from 7 to 5. During the day when the lights are on they look completely fine, they swim in their shoal and eat. There just seems to always be less of them the next morning.

Tank is a 140 Hightech, co2 turns off when the lights go out, FX5 and a XP3, I have 4 roselines, 6 4inch angles, 2 GBR, and 5 loaches that are only 2-3inchs.

Any idea what is happening here? I EI dose and water parameters are within range ammonia and nitrites are 0, Nitrates are 15, ph is 6.4.

The only thing I can think is I have a air pump that comes on from 1am to 4am and maybe this is causing a ph swing? I am currently not running a heater because temps have been like 80-82, I doubt they are coming down much at night but I might plug that back in to eliminate it from the possibilities.

 

[Gerryd]

Hi,

Are the angels eating them?????? Cardinals are snacks for larger angels and most larger cichlids...

 

[Tom Barr]

82-84F seems good for mine.
These fish can have disease come in from other fish or their own types, but after a few months, they population that remains seems stable, you will not lose any/many from then on.

I've had batches where I'd lose 1 out 100, and others where I only was able to save 4-5 out of 100.

Hit or miss.

 

[Charles Crews]

Gerry, I thought that might be the issue but the angels don't chance them what so ever during the day so I really doubt they turn evil when the lights go out.

Tom, thanks for the input, just a little frustrating losing fish. Guess I'll try and find a different source and buy a batch.

 

[Biollante]

So Trusting...


Hi,

Try quarantining your new arrivals.

Are you recovering the bodies of the Cardinal Tetras intact? Losing so many there should be a lot of bodies.


Do not underestimate Angelfish as top of the food chain predators, despite their name Angelfish, are anything but Angelic.


Angelfish are among the worst community fish among popular community fish.


Some Angelfish develop a particular taste and talent for killing Tetras. Angelfish often operate as ambush hunters, not requiring much movement. Cardinal Tetras make a consistent set of escape moves, when an Angelfish gets the hang of this move; it anticipates the Cardinal Tetras move.

I keep and have kept many Angelfish over the years and generally consider the loss of the occasional Neon or Cardinal Tetra a small price to pay for keeping Angelfish, but every now and again I find an Angelfish or a pair of Angelfish that master this “trick.”

An adult Angelfish can go through a couple of dozen Tetras in days.

When losing fish, keep track of the bodies, it doesn’t hurt to closely examine the bodies, though I think it odd I know many people are squeamish about this aspect, but even a cursory examination can tell us much.

Quarantining is just, in my-ever-humble-potted-plant-opinion, a good practice.


Biollante

 

[JimG]

They may have been overstressed from shipping. Buying new arrivals is risky.

What are the LFS water parameters? Betcha it's just tap. Trying to acclimate from what they are used to to your tank water too quickly will result in some losses. Another reason for a quarantine tank.

 

[Matsyendra]

My immediate thought was the angels... I don't think the pH swing would be enough and if your hardness is stable then the pH swing is probably even less of an issue...

Angels are nasty things... if they can't eat you.. they harass you to death... and they would probably wait for lights out, just so you can't finger them.. you can probably guess that I have never liked angels.

 

[Htomassini]

I would find out if they are farm raised or wild. I bought 50 wild caught 2.5 yrs ago and I am down to about 12 or so. Ive lost about 10 to a pump failure low o2 issue and the rest slowly died/jumped, disappeared.
If they were wild caught, I'd definately quarante them and slowly acclimate them. Not all lfs care about the water params of the individual fish. Wild caught cardinals like warm acidic water. Ever feel the tank they were kept in? If they had the a/c that tank was kept at around 74-77f, which is way too low for them, and then you stick them in you 82f tank......

 

[Charles Crews]

Thanks for all the input from everyone, I went back to the LFS that I purchased the fish from today...... To my (UN)pleasant surprise all their cardinals were being treated for a bacterial infection.

With that being said I am planning on getting about 7-12 discus in the next week or so (no earlier than Sunday), I am buying them from Houstonaquariumwarehouse which is not where the cardinals were purchased. I have done some research on HAW and it would seem like they are a pretty solid place to buy discus. My remaining 5 cardinals seem in good health as does everyone else in the tank. I just purchased a quarantine tank, but am still waiting for the air/filter parts to come in.

I wasn't planning on quarantining the discus since I am getting them all in the same lot, should I be concerned with the cardinals that are in there? They look fine, I don't see anything that would make me think they are sick.

Final two questions, whats the policy on cycling a quarantine tank? And does anyone have any pointers on keeping the discus happy and healthy? I have done a lot of reading both on this forum and others (simplydiscus, etc) I know food is important and I plan on not buying anything smaller than 3inches.

 

[Tom Barr]

It really is a dice roll.
Allow the LFS to take the hit, do not run in and buy their new batch, let them sit.
Either that, or just risk it.
There's really no way to stop the losses if they come in like this, but if they come in good shape, then there's little issue.

I wish I had other advice, but we do not know the disease or issue very well, plenty of unknowns..........correlations, speculations, folks that make claims.........but little real information that we can really trust.

 

[Tom Barr]

If the cards are beyond say 3-4 weeks and they are not dying off one at time slowly....then you are in the clear.

Then add the Discus etc. Q tanks are great.........I take the dirty flith from the main tank and squeeze it into the sponge on the Q tank, or just add the sponge material into the main tank for a week etc, then on the Q tank thereafter.

 

[Biollante]

Experience

Hi,

Much of what we do is defensive as Tom points out. In fact, many breeders and purveyors of higher end fish do a good job of holding and quarantining critters, it is worth the extra money in my-ever-humble-potted-plant-opinion.


First, did you find any bodies? If it is environmental conditions rather than Angelfish or a bacterial infection,

• the condition that caused the initial deaths may be irrevocable and the Cardinal fish are going to die no matter what.
  
  • If the fish are in distress, humanely euthanize them.
    
• If it was bacterial then you are in the clear. Personally my bet is on environmental (temperature swings) or Angelfish (yummy treats).
  

Second just because the air temperature is high does not mean the water temperature is, depending on things like dew point and air flow the water column can be significantly different.

• Fish such as Cardinal Tetras, Discus and to a lesser degree Angelfish can be very sensitive to temperature and especially to swings in temperature.
• Keep a heater, better yet two set and in the tank at all times,
• with Discus, Cardinal Tetras and Angelfish it is better to choose a temperature above anything the environment might cause.
  
  • In other words, if air temperature, lights, pumps and so forth cause the water temperature to be 80F, set the heaters for 82F.

Third, the air pump, which is a good idea, is unlikely to cause the kind of pH swings likely to harm the fish[SUP]1[/SUP]. I recommend you start the air pump immediately after lights-out and stop just before the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] comes on.


What are “GBR?” I don’t mean to seem stupid, I just am.


What kind of loaches?


Has your tank been operating for more than a year?

Are the Discus fish the point of your display? This will determine my quarantine tank answer. Don’t sweat it, quarantine tanks are quite simple, in fact, elaborate is bad in quarantine terms.

Biollante
[SUP]1[/SUP]Swings in pH caused by CO[SUB]2[/SUB] do not seem to have much of an effect on our critters, pH changes resulting from chemical or “salt” can be devastating.

 

[Matsyendra]

I believe.. and I could be entirely wrong here... GBR= German Blue Rams

 

[Charles Crews]

Thanks for the advice Tom.

Biollante, I have decided that I am done purchasing livestock from that particular store, even though it's one of Houston's better LFS.

I found two of the 6 MIA cardinals, they were reasonably intact (didn't look as his they had been eaten). And remember these guys are in a very planted 140 gal tank so the fact that I didn't find 4 of them isn't unthinkable.

The issue that has been bothering me is that they look super healthy during the day and up until this morning I have been losing them during the night.

I have two thermometers on the tank, one digital, the other is a standard mercury meter. I've never seen the tank under 80 degrees, with that said I plugged the heather in tonight and set it to 82. I have a couple more in a box that I'll put in as backups.

GBR is German Blue Ram

As far as the loaches, I have 3 clown loaches, 1 yoyo, and 1 Angelicus Botia. The yoyo is the largest and isn't more than 3 inches.

The tank has been running for about 15 months, and the Discus plan to be my centerfold.

 

[Htomassini]

If you are buying 3 inch discus be prepared to do 3 wc a week. Growing discus need the wc to grow out properly. They grow better in water with a decent gh. They need softwater for breeding but 5 to 6 gh for growout. Keep the temp at a min of 84 degrees. Feed then a variety of foods two to three times daily. And deworm them every 6 months.



---
- Henry Tomassini
www.theplantedaquariumstore.com
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Charles Crews]

Henry,

Any special suggestions out of the ordinary for food? What is your deworming method? Obviously a quarantine tank with meds, but what meds and do you do all the discus at once? My quarantine tank is only 20 gals so that might be a tight fit. Also how long do you keep them in there while deworming?

I am planning to buy all the discus at once from a reputable importer, who quarantines them for a week before he puts them up for sale. Would you suggest that I deworm them straight away or should they be ok and I can wait 6 months from now?

 

[Htomassini]

Charles,

You should feed them frozen mysis shrimp either hikari or PISCINE (really good quality) , veggie wafers, frozen blood worms, and a high protein pellet combo ( i carry a nice USA made high protein grow pellet too). I would feed them the algae wafers once to twice a week, with daily frozen and pellet. Frozen adult brine shrimp is good for cleaning out their gut and fast them once a week.

The de worming can be done via jungle pellet food with built in dewormer (but they need to be able to eat the food) garlic liquid helps.
Unfortunatly, we have made hybrid discus more suceptible to hex and other parasites by extreme breeding. Wild discus are much easier to de worm as their parasites are more reactive to meds.

If your flora and fauna will tolerate keep them at 86f untill they get to about 6+ inches (about a year and half, then you can keep them happy at 84)

They are grazers, meaning that they may take up to half and hour picking at the food on the floor when you feed them.

Also they can be very sociable. I can pet mine and move them around with my hand when I am cleaning the tank.

They also have a developed social structure so make sure that you get all of them at once.
There will be a pecking order and some will try to become the alphas.

Whenever you rescape, it will throw off their boundaries and they will have lip fights untill they re establish their territory.

Yes they can spook easily, unless you get them used to louder sounds and people walking by. Mine have grown up by my front door , in the living room, with my son running back and forth and the stereo blasting.

I would get them eating right away first and get them used to a cycle.

Always give them the deworming food after the day of fasting, they will be very hungry.

Also get some beefheart mixture with the meds from the breeder and cut into cubes and freeze it. That will be your deworming food. ALL GOOD breeders grow them out with some sort of homemade food with medicine.

No need to quarantine them.

But check for the following things when selecting:
CLEAR EYES
-Any haze means too much ammonia or excessive phospates in water or hot scratched in transport

FINS SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY RAGGED EDGES
-the fins towards the tail and the tail fin should follow the arc of the body and not be squiggly
-otherwise fish had bacterial infection when it was afry
RED EYES
-red eyes are always prefered
THEY SHOULD BE ROUND
-with the dorsal fin, the fish should look round, and elongated looking discus not a great discus
SIZE OF EYES
-the eyes should be relatively small. From the top of the head to the eye, you should be able to fit at least 4 "eyes"
This will tell if the fish was stunted due to lack of water changes- the breeder seller should be changing the water at least times a week
BLACK POOP
-watch them eat and poop BLACK- white or stringy poop- they have a parasite or something is not right
SHOULD BE ALERT
-Pick the ones that show interest in you
GILLS
Look at gills make sure not red
MARKINGS
If looking at a snake skin or leopard make sure they have clearly defined patterning, a good hybrid will not be splotchy like a koi
SWIMMING STRAIGHT
make sure they have hover level, they cant level out when not looking for food it means they have swim bladder issue.

I hope this helps you